I explained it in my previous post. I get that you abhor the implications of your arguments here. That’s a good reason to stop making those arguments.
I’ll quote it again, then:
I guess we’re at an impasse, because I’m unable to connect what you’re saying to my actual specific words.
Try reading post 273 again - I used your specific words and explained how they were problematic.
I still see no connection to my actual words. You’re reading something into it that’s not there at all.
I may regret this, but I was so struck with the last paragraph in Miller’s post 273—it really does encapsulate what I think is a reasonable objection to the argument you’ve been making:
That’s it. I’m sure women everywhere appreciate your attempt to champion them, but in the process of your particular argument here, you’ve hit on this 'people who have concerns about Biden and look at the videos are deriving sexual gratification from them’ claim that is, frankly, not respectable or helpful or reflective of reality.
Again, I will apologize for butting in, but Miller really did put into words what I’ve been vaguely trying to formulate for several pages, now.
That was not my intention, and if anyone took it that way, I’m happy to apologize.
Next time, stay away from words like “slobber” maybe.
Fair enough. I was thinking of the Breitbart crazies who made and promoted some of these videos that I’ve seen in the past, not anyone in this thread. Those assholes are gross.
Fair enough.
Back to Biden: Democrats in positions of power would be smart to look at the question ‘what qualities in Biden are believed to be the key to winning states we’re worried about, such as Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin?’
Surely it’s not his age. And surely it’s not that he’s made serious runs at getting the nomination several times.
So it must be other traits. What are they? Why are they believed to be important? Are they important? Should we publicly examine the belief that these traits are important? If we think “maleness” is crucial, why do we believe it’s crucial? Are we right about that, or are we making unwarranted assumptions? If we think “physically affectionate” is crucial, why? If we think “says whatever he’s thinking” is crucial, why?
And so on. This could be a useful exercise, I believe.
Sure. Acknowledging that he is not my preferred choice I’ll make that case.
You’ve got to answer first by identifying the key demographics you need to hit on for those states. That’s going to be flipping back the Obama-Trump voters, not turning off the Romney-Clinton ones, and getting Black voter turnout up there.
He’s long had strong support among that Obama-Trump demographic which includes many working class whites, and it’s his lack of polish (without getting to the crude level of Trump), and his authenticity that seem to be the key traits there.
Romney-Clinton ones see as enough in the Beltway as to be a force for stability.
And right now at least he polls very well among Black voters, which might just be based on association with Obama, but could be the same authenticity and relative centrism as well. Here’s from 538:
What are the traits that appeal to those key demographics and why? Who else could best appeal to all three?
I might be talking myself into moving Biden up my list some …
Related question -
Accepting for the sake of discussion that “Northern Path” thesis of those states being the key states to win, and that those are the demographics that matter most to achieving that goal, does the issue of too familiar non-sexual touch, of presumptuous and even “entitled” touch, of touch that has on occasion been unwelcome and uncomfortable, impact those demographics in a race against Trump so much?
It’s a very different question than how it impacts the nomination process.
My take is that this issue per se does not at all.
My concern remains though what it portends for how he will handle how the rest of his baggage comes up. There will be major smear campaigns run and he has history, some of which does not even need to be taken out of context, or put in small frames, to look bad. He currently is very popular among Black voters … will it remain after those attacks hit? (For example.)
In the context of the primary, the focus would be on what Lucy Flores and others are saying.
In the context of the general election, I think there’s this vicious cycle where so many are hung up on perceived hypocrisy in elites who moralize while not caring to practice what they preach, and they (those hung up on this) care more about that than weighing how grievous individual faults are to put it politely. The trolls will call him a pedophile and anything else with no shame. Biden has given some speeches in the last year or two where he has referenced men abusing power in personal and violating ways. I could see him getting flack for this inconsistency in word and action with those who matter, not for the actions unless he fails to change as he has said he will. Whether his background would cause him to be pegged in the vein of a Washington elite is probably a mix, and his communication style mentioned earlier shouldn’t hurt him in that regard. I did see some people including a few on the center-left for a variety of reasons get up in arms because he recently talked about white man’s culture; unless he is constantly beating that drum I don’t know if many will remember or care that much. I guess according to my CNN link some progressives were also critical of the speech because he didn’t go far enough.
How in tarnation were we supposed to know that? I think if the acronym isn’t instantly recognizable, spell the darn thing out.
As for the primary voters question … I’m not so sure. Reasonable analysis here while we wait for post-kerfluffle polling.
TL/DNR? This bit will hold the most salience to those who were unlikely to choose Biden already and mean little, or even rally to him, many who are already ranking him their number one choice. (Which the author regrets to be the case.)
But I’m interested in hearing a more detailed discussion from you about “those who matter”. Assuming you are agreeing that those are the same three groups I identified, Obama-Trump, Romney-Clinton, and Black voters, which of them do you think are most prone to change support in a race against Trump based on a campaign pegging him as having “inconsistency in word and action”? Is there any particular reason you think that?
Unfortunately, there’s a lot of overlap between inappropriate touching and inappropriate sexual touching. I don’t have the impression that there was a sexual motivation to what Biden was doing. But touching other people is something that most people would be uncomfortable with anyway–sexual or not.
I had a male manager would would touch both male and female employees on the back and shoulder when talking to them. There was nothing sexual about it, but I felt uncomfortable when he did it to me. I don’t want to be touched by people with that kind of relationship to me (stranger, acquaintance, etc.)
I view this kind of behavior in the category of insensitive or lacking empathy behavior more than harassment or predatory behavior. Along with touching, it might also include talking endlessly without regard for the other person’s interest in the topic, calling at home about non-emergency work topics outside of work hours, excessive micromanaging, and so on. Boorish, lack of awareness of personal space, lack of awareness of others interest, etc. all fall into that category.
I think he’s handling it poorly now. Rather than being apologetic for making people feel uncomfortable, he’s saying he did nothing wrong. It would be like a person who talks endlessly saying they won’t apologize for doing so and will keep talking to someone as long as they feel like, even if that other person is bored to tears and couldn’t care less about the topic. But in this political environment, who knows, maybe that’s the right attitude to win. Saying he’ll do whatever he feels like without concern for anyone else seems to be a winning strategy at the moment.
“Most people”?
I doubt.
I actually think most people respond well to appropriate touch (tautology I know). I don’t think most find non-sexual touch not intended to demonstrate power or control but intended to communicate attention, focus, support, or concern as unwanted or intrusive. But enough don’t like it that great caution is warranted especially if there is a real or perceived power imbalance between the toucher and the touched. That perception can be based on position or gender or a wide variety of factors.
Biden has not exhibited such caution. He says he gets it now. Not sure he does.
Today’s remarks by Biden seem to indicate that he very much does NOT get it. His people clearly have tried to get through to him; at one point after today’s speech to the electrical-workers union, he did utter the requisite ‘I know it’s not about what I intended but about the discomfort felt by those who’ve spoken out’ line, but soon reverted to “I am not sorry for anything that I have ever done – I’ve never been disrespectful, intentionally, to a man or a woman.”
The first isn’t a actual quotation–it’s a paraphrase–because I haven’t yet found a full transcript of today’s interaction with reporters. But the second is quoted in several stories.
Today Biden seemed not only defensive, but actually, well, angry. Or as angry as he gets. He seemed to defy Those Irrationally-Critical Women by joking about the situation twice during his on-stage time:
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/437582-biden-im-not-sorry-for-anything-that-i-have-ever-done
TheHill.com
On the ‘defensiveness’ front, he told reporters that plenty of people welcome his touch:
So with reference to DSeid’s categories of Obama-Trump, Romney-Clinton, and Black voters: My guess is that males among them will shrug, and females will be split between those who will sigh and swallow their disappointment (at being asked, yet again, to simply put up with uninvited touches by those with more power), and those who will reject Biden soundly and decisively.
You know, there’s no need to put women on a pedestal here. Many females will merely shrug too. You really think Obama-Trump women were sighing and swallowing their disappointment when they voted for the pussygrabber?
Maybe some fraction of them. Warring within them (possibly) was delight at Trump’s implicit promise to Make America White Again, and a disappointed resignation to the pussy-grabbing.
According to a Hill poll, a majority of American voters, Democrats, Independents, women, men, and people aged 35+ say this isn’t a deal breaker and Biden should still run. And a plurality of voters 18-34 say the same.
So it seems a lot of people are shrugging right now.