# Is 'John of God' a Healer or a Charlatan? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 11, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491 "2005-02-11T00:42:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/1 "2005-02-11T00:42:39Z")
My first guess is, charlatan. On second thought…still charlatan. Haven’t we seen this kind of shit before? [http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Primetime/story?id=482292](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Primetime/story?id=482292) > [@](#): > > For more than 30 years, millions of desperate people from around the world — the sick, the crippled, the terminally ill — have made a pilgrimage to the remote high plateaus of central Brazil in search of a cure. > > They travel to see a man who is said to have miraculous healing powers and can supposedly perform surgeries without pain or even anesthesia. His acolytes call him “João de Deus” or “John of God.” This will air Thursday, Feb. 10, at 10PM ET, on ABC Primetime. The main honcho is John Quiñones, known more for gullibility than skepticism. > [@](#): > > Other “visible” surgeries involve cutting believers with scalpels, using no anesthesia. “John of God” claims his hands are guided by the spirits of more than 30 dead doctors, some of whom have been dead for centuries. He also performs so-called “invisible” surgeries without even laying hands on people. The medium performs such a procedure on Quiñones, in an effort to see if he can heal an old shoulder injury. Why do I think this show will give 90% of the time to the frauds, and only a token sound bite to a skeptic? > [@](#): > > Quiñones talks with a noted skeptic, who says the whole enterprise is a front for a money-making scheme — even though “John of God” charges no fee for treatment. > > “Primetime” examined the medical records of the patients followed in this hour, and also consulted one of the world’s most respected surgeons, Dr. Mehmet Oz. He has some surprising things to say about whether there could be real medical merit to “John of God’s” controversial healing methods. I’m willing to bet those “surprising things” will be “there may be something to this.” I’ll also bet that they won’t show James Randi doing “psychic surgery” using five folded fingers, a false thumb and some chicken guts. Of course, I could be wrong. Unfortunately, John Stossel is not involved, so it’s probably going to be standard textbook network news junk for a buck. ABC – the medieval network. \* Tune in to the dark ages.\* ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/2 "2005-02-11T00:54:21Z")
I know nothing of this man and I have seen a lot of shows that busted medical frauds. But I prefer to remain an open-minded skeptic and at least watch the show first. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/3 "2005-02-11T01:28:56Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I know nothing of this man and I have seen a lot of shows that busted medical frauds. But I prefer to remain an open-minded skeptic and at least watch the show first. All psychic healers are frauds, without exception. I assure you, there is no need to “open your mind” to this criminal. That’s what they prey on. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/4 "2005-02-11T02:19:30Z")
**Zoe,** I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: any psychic healer that hasn’t won the million dollar prize is a big fat fraud. Nyahh, nyahh… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/5 "2005-02-11T02:42:58Z")
_“Quiñones comes face-to-face with “John of God,” who claims that, through him, God heals believers through “visible” surgeries, using some startling and unorthodox techniques — including sticking long forceps up the nostrils and twisting them violently.”_ No wonder his followers are complacent believers - they’ve been given lobotomies. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/6 "2005-02-11T03:59:26Z")
**"John of God" claims his hands are guided by the spirits of more than 30 dead doctors, some of whom have been dead for centuries.** Well that pretty much settles it for me. I don’t know what the guy is, but he’s definitely not of God. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/7 "2005-02-11T04:27:37Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > **Zoe,** I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: any psychic healer that hasn’t won the million dollar prize is a big fat fraud. Nyahh, nyahh… 😉 Ahh, c’mon that million dollars is as big of a fraud as the the frauds it is dangled before. Randi ain’t serious, his offer is a rigged deal and not in the interest of science or progress. His is a prejudiced standard. I can’t understand how anybody could see him as a voice of reason and rationale. He’s just the polar extreme. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/8 "2005-02-11T04:39:31Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Ahh, c’mon that million dollars is as big of a fraud as the the frauds it is dangled before. Randi ain’t serious, his offer is a rigged deal and not in the interest of science or progress. > > His is a prejudiced standard. I can’t understand how anybody could see him as a voice of reason and rationale. He’s just the polar extreme. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. On one side of the spectrum you have fantasy, on the other side you have reality, and you think the truth is somewhere in the _middle?!?_ BTW, if you have any evidence that the deal is rigged, would you mind sharing it with us? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/9 "2005-02-11T04:45:27Z")
Yeah, **Devilsknew** , exactly how is it rigged? Please tell us. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/10 "2005-02-11T04:56:11Z")
John of God is a fraud. The man with the tumor could easily have had some spontaneous shrinkage–check back with him in two years. The woman who could start to “walk” has been working towards that goal for ten or fifteen years and her progress, while nice, is about what you could expect after that time when the spinal cord has not been completely severed (you’ll remember that they mentioned it wasn’t at the top of the show). The man with ALS and the woman with breast cancer are worse than they were before. the only person whose condition improved markedly was the one I predicted (my wife is my witness) would be the one with marked improvement because her complaints were “chronic fatigue syndrome” and “severe allergies.” In both cases the patient’s symptoms and progress can only be gauged by what the patient says she is experiencing and, I hate to say, the first, especially, is often psychosomatic. What I found disturbing is that the only options anybody gave were that John is a miracle worker or is a “madman,” to use their word. The possibility of fraud was scarcely raised. **devilsknew** , several people here, including you, have insisted on Randi’s sleaziness before and have been told repeatedly that they are deluded and/or ignorant. There is a reason for that. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/11 "2005-02-11T05:01:00Z")
To borrow a cruel and despicable practice of this board, in deathpool fashion, I will predict that James Randi will pass of natural causes in late 2006. I also predict that I will be denied this clear demonstration of predictive ability and not be awarded $1 million dollars. They will require something that is beyond all reasonable standards and every excuse will be intellectualized and brought forward to obfuscate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/12 "2005-02-11T05:10:01Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > To borrow a cruel and despicable practice of this board, in deathpool fashion, I will predict that James Randi will pass of natural causes in late 2006. I also predict that I will be denied this clear demonstration of predictive ability and not be awarded $1 million dollars. They will require something that is beyond all reasonable standards and every excuse will be intellectualized and brought forward to obfuscate. Does this mean you have formally applied for the prize using the form provided on the website, and worked out the exact details of your prediction with JREF? If not, it won’t take much “intellectualization” to figure out why you ain’t getting that million, bucky. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/13 "2005-02-11T05:12:34Z")
And that is not a reply to Diogenes’s question. How, specifically, does Randi rig the contest? As for the Death Pool, an old man like Randi ain’t gonna get you many points. Tell me he will live another fifty years and, if he does, I’ll be impressed with your predictive powers. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/14 "2005-02-11T05:20:31Z")
I will not formalize this to win money because of my ethics. My point is the same as Randi’s. The truth is bigger than either of us. Ethically, they could concede to my stand alone proof, but will not. Contraction of truth is automatic. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/15 "2005-02-11T05:21:02Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Ahh, c’mon that million dollars is as big of a fraud as the the frauds it is dangled before. Randi ain’t serious, his offer is a rigged deal and not in the interest of science or progress. > > His is a prejudiced standard. I can’t understand how anybody could see him as a voice of reason and rationale. He’s just the polar extreme. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. If the truth lies in the middle, then I guess you _can_ be just a little bit pregnant. :dubious: It appears you have missed all of our regular threads on the [Million Dollar Challenge,](http://randi.org/research/challenge.html) **Devilsknew,** perhaps you haven’t actually read it, or perhaps you fell asleep during our last discussion. I don’t want to risk hijacking this thread, so if you feel the need to start another on this topic, please do so. It has been at least a week since the last one, and I feel a void coming on. 😉 Meanwhile, I suspect a claim such as yours would be in the minority in these parts, podner, as I see upon preview. I really must learn to type faster. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/16 "2005-02-11T05:37:54Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > What I found disturbing is that the only options anybody gave were that John is a miracle worker or is a “madman,” to use their word. The possibility of fraud was scarcely raised. Yes. They left out the most distasteful (and most obviously true) part of the trilemma- LIAR. Who was it that predicted the skeptic (James Randi in this case) would only get one token sound byte? You were right. He got one sentence and it was about the self-delusion of the marks. They decided we didn’t want to listen to JR explain in excruciating detail exactly how Mr “of God” does every single trick. That might actually amount to a critical examination. How about J of G’s tactic of providing his “patients” with a list of crap they can’t do or their “treatments” won’t take? The 20/20 dude got “no alcohol. no sex, no pork and no pepper” (among others I don’t remember). Obviously, this is stuff that most people are going to cheat on one way or the other (I would not be able to stick to the requirements and it’s not because I have any great craving for pork…or pepper or alcohol). This gives JOG a nice out when the victims…er, “patients,” don’t get better. It’s not his fault, it’s their fault. You can’t expect God to be a miracle worker, you know. I think the pepper is especially clever becauseeven if you get a saint who sticks to the list, you can always just say he must have eaten some pepper accidentally (you can even make a big show of examining his ears or something to determine it). id anyone else see him totally feel up that one woman’s breasts? the one who got the tweezers up her nose? ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/17 "2005-02-11T05:50:21Z")
Just so there is no misunderstanding, I too found this John of God higly dubious and beyond shady. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/18 "2005-02-11T05:55:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Who was it that predicted the skeptic (James Randi in this case) would only get one token sound byte? You were right. He got one sentence and it was about the self-delusion of the marks. I think that would be me. > [@Musicat](#): > > Why do I think this show will give 90% of the time to the frauds, and only a token sound bite to a skeptic? I didn’t just fall off the turnip truck, y’know. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/19 "2005-02-11T05:59:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > All psychic healers are frauds, without exception. ROTFL! Of course. What else could we expect from a self-styled Cynic? Stay in character there, boy… Keep that mind closed… Nothing in, nothing out. Guess that beats GIGO… But not by much. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/20 "2005-02-11T06:06:41Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Did anyone else see him totally feel up that one woman’s breasts? the one who got the tweezers up her nose? Well, you can’t say his job is without perks. Not only do you get to grab some titties, you get to mutilate some noses, _and people thank you for it._ Doesn’t get much better than that. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491.md?page=2)