# Is 'John of God' a Healer or a Charlatan? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 11, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491 "2005-02-11T00:42:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/61 "2005-02-12T16:56:25Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > When science discovers _how_ to tap into the body’s ability to turn on the placebo effect, that’s the “psychic” healing program I’m interested in. First, science would need to establish that the placebo effect is something more than people believing they feel better because they expect to. Then, and only then, will they spend any time figuring out _how_ this supposed thing works. I don’t think it will ever reach that point, because the idea that my emotions will turn on just the right chemicals, antibodies, etc., to fix what’s currently ailing me is just not plausible to me. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/62 "2005-02-12T21:36:15Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think he expressed that quite clearly: > > “The master conjurer conjures up an impossible set of conditions that looks doable – at first glance. (Till you read the details).” > > I don’t side with this either way. I like Randi just fine. But pretending that Evans hasn’t expressed his beef cogently and coherently doesn’t make sense. **EvanS** : Suppose you had a minor but real psychic power. Suppose you could cause jelly beans to levitate one inch over your hand. Do you think that you would be able to win Randi’s $1,000,000? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Tentacle\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@Tentacle\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tentacle_Monster)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/63 "2005-02-13T05:18:58Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > You are goading my goat, > haranguing my orangutan, > and harassing my ass. > Perhaps, you’d like to fuck my pig? Don’t talk about your wife like that! ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/64 "2005-02-13T05:20:19Z")
> [@EvanS](#): > > I will. > I read his "Memorandum of Agreement’ – and if anyone could possibly meet all of his conditions and (I forget what he called the other things), you’d have to be God’s brother. More “ifs” than an Arabian marriage contract. > > The master conjurer conjures up an impossible set of conditions that looks doable – at first glance. (Till you read the details). > > On one side you have speculation, on the other side you have deception. > Frankly I don’t think the Truth lies anywhere within either one of these > > These guys are just opposite ends of the spectrum that preys on the gullible. > “John” gets some, “Randi” gets the others. You been snowed. > > You been had. Huh? [Rules](http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/65 "2005-02-13T15:57:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yes, but it has been pointed out again and again, with appropriate cites and links, that this is not true, and yet he persists in repeating this without providing any evidence. _That_ is the part that doesn’t make sense. I agree with you there. The rules aren’t daunting. If anything, they’re vague. They basically say that the rules will be whatever you and I can agree that the rules will be. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/66 "2005-02-13T17:45:40Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I agree with you there. The rules aren’t daunting. If anything, they’re vague. They basically say that the rules will be whatever you and I can agree that the rules will be. And the reason for that, of course, is that different situations call for different standards and measurements. Asking for 4 out of 5 correct answers when guessing what cards are being drawn from a deck might be about right, but saying that you must raise 75% of the people from the dead in a cemetary is IMHO asking a bit much. I’m pretty sure that just creating 1 zombie from an authentic dead dude would get you the prize, providing you filled out the proper paperwork and the terms were agreed upon beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/67 "2005-02-13T23:23:42Z")
> [@](#): > > **DtC** : “Psychic healing” is an umbrella term for any number of scams which purport to use paramormal powers to “heal” physical afflictions. South America is lousy with these guys. > > maybe you’ve heard of the “psychic surgeons” who use stage magic to make it appear as if they’re pulling bloody tumors and the like out of their “patients?” Then we are working from different definitions already. Naturally I don’t believe in the scams which use “paranormal” powers to “heal” either. Yes, I’m familiar with the “psychic surgeons” and their bogus surgeries. Never believed in them to begin with. (As I’ve said before, I believe that whatever there is that is _real_ that is considered paranormal is actually quite normal. Have you seen studies on the abiiity to mechanically stimulate the brain and produce the sensation of a “Presence”? What I am interested in is the power of the mind to control pain and to promote healing. I already know some about the effectiveness of controlling pain and I would like to know more about the mind’s ability to affect the rest of the body. > [@](#): > > **CurtC** : First, science would need to establish that the placebo effect is something more than people believing they feel better because they expect to. No. Science would need to explain what happens in the brain _because_ people expect to. HOW does their _thinking_ have a physical effect? (Surely they have done this already.) The placebo effect doesn’t have to be anything more than just that. > [@](#): > > Then, and only then, will they spend any time figuring out how this supposed thing works. I don’t think it will ever reach that point, because the idea that my emotions will turn on just the right chemicals, antibodies, etc., to fix what’s currently ailing me is just not plausible to me. Your emotions already do turn on just the right chemicals in other situations. If you are frightened, you have more adrenalin in your system. And consider what happens to your body when you are in love. Quieting the mind reduces blood pressure. I can give other examples, but you can think of many on your own. You and **DtC** are the ones trying to make something hokey out of the _mind-body_ connection and misusing the term _psychic healing_ so that it applies _only_ to the scams. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/68 "2005-02-14T00:17:37Z")
Psychic healing does apply only to scams. Nobody who’s not a fraud would call him or herself a “psychic,” I also don’t think that anything much has been proven about a “mind-body” connection other than the brain’s ability to sometimes short circuit information about pain. Other things like breathing and meditation techniques may have a calming effect but I think that’s about as far as it goes. I certainly don’t think there’s any evidence that the brain can “heal” anything. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/69 "2005-02-18T21:12:32Z")
IMNSHO, any who calls himself “(anyname) of God” is a charlatan. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/70 "2005-02-18T22:15:24Z")
**DtC** , although this is off-topic and the link is temporary, I thought that I would post this link to let you know that this is the sort of open-minded approach to science that I find more worthwhile. Of course, this is very preliminary. [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=97&ncid=97&e=8&u=/hsn/20050218/hl\_hsn/sciencepointstoasixthsense](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=97&ncid=97&e=8&u=/hsn/20050218/hl_hsn/sciencepointstoasixthsense) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/71 "2005-02-19T03:27:52Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **DtC** , although this is off-topic and the link is temporary, I thought that I would post this link to let you know that this is the sort of open-minded approach to science that I find more worthwhile. > > Of course, this is very preliminary. > > [Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=97&ncid=97&e=8&u=/hsn/20050218/hl_hsn/sciencepointstoasixthsense) It’s an intriguing story, and it’s real science, but it doesn’t actually suggest any “psi” or paranormal ability. The phrase “sixth sense” in the story is used figuratively to describe a subconscious cognitive reaction to purely visual stimuli. I don’t have a problem with this kind of thing, what I object to is hypothesizing things like “psychic” ability or non-materialistic theories of “ch’i” and the like. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/72 "2005-02-19T03:41:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s an intriguing story, and it’s real science, but it doesn’t actually suggest any “psi” or paranormal ability. The phrase “sixth sense” in the story is used figuratively to describe a subconscious cognitive reaction to purely visual stimuli. I don’t have a problem with this kind of thing, what I object to is hypothesizing things like “psychic” ability or non-materialistic theories of “ch’i” and the like. By strictest definiton this subconscious cognitive reaction is psychic. ---
**Author:** ![mike1dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@mike1dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mike1dog)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/73 "2005-02-19T03:42:16Z")
Back to the topic here. I thought that John Quinones attempted healing was absolutely pointless. He said that no improvement occurred, but that he hadn’t followed all of the instructions given by John O’ God. Why did he even mention it then? His instructions weren’t all that odious: No pork, no pepper(huh?), no sex. Why couldn’t he follow the instructions, I don’t know. It was really shoddy reporting, but I still don’t believe in this junk. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/74 "2005-02-19T03:47:03Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > By strictest definiton this subconscious cognitive reaction is psychic. If by “strictest definition” you mean “of the mind,” then you are correct. What I am saying is that there is nothing “paranormal” being alleged. No actual _information_ is being acquired other than by normal sensory means. This is a study about how the brain _processes_ that information, not about how it is received. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/75 "2005-02-19T03:51:35Z")
> [@mike1dog](#): > > Back to the topic here. I thought that John Quinones attempted healing was absolutely pointless. He said that no improvement occurred, but that he hadn’t followed all of the instructions given by John O’ God. Why did he even mention it then? His instructions weren’t all that odious: No pork, no pepper(huh?), no sex. Why couldn’t he follow the instructions, I don’t know. It was really shoddy reporting, but I still don’t believe in this junk. I think the list is really designed to be failed. The instructions also said “no sex” and “no alcohol” (and I think there was more as well). It’s all stuff that people are likely to cheat on and give JOG his out. Even if the _don’t_ cheat, I’m betting that he will say they must have gotten some pepper “accidentally.” In fact, I’m guessing that’s a major reason that pepper is on the list. It’s so ubiquitous that it’s difficult to avoid even if you’re trying. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/76 "2005-02-20T00:50:06Z")
> [@](#): > > **DtC** : If by “strictest definition” you mean “of the mind,” then you are correct. What I am saying is that there is nothing “paranormal” being alleged. You are the one who keeps dragging the _paranormal_ label around and applying it to the powers of the psyche. That allows you to dismiss possibilities that _science_ is still exploring. I don’t believe in the so-called “paranormal.” I am somewhat open to what _may_ be normal. I remain skeptical and know that the scientific process takes a long, long time. I like you personally, but I think that your “It’ll never fly, Orville” attitude is not in keeping with your usual standards. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/77 "2005-02-21T00:40:00Z")
James Randi is upset, not only about how his voluntary contribution was butchered and discarded, but how irresponsibly the show was put together by ABC. You can read his latest commentary [here.](http://randi.org/jr/021805a.html) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/78 "2005-02-21T03:57:14Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Let’s see you put toothpaste back in the tube without damaging the tube. For a million bucks? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/79 "2005-02-21T03:58:49Z")
> [@EvanS](#): > > I assume someone who disbelieves everything is just the flip side of the coin from someone who believes everything. That is: gullible. Nice segue. From DtC’s “I don’t believe in psychic healing” we’ve apparently moved on to people who disbelieve everything. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491/80 "2005-02-21T04:06:35Z")
> [@EvanS](#): > > I will. > I read his "Memorandum of Agreement’ – and if anyone could possibly meet all of his conditions and (I forget what he called the other things), you’d have to be God’s brother. More “ifs” than an Arabian marriage contract. > > The master conjurer conjures up an impossible set of conditions that looks doable – at first glance. (Till you read the details). I’ve seen it so many times I can write the script. It goes like this: 1/ PWMISOTBHFO[sup]\*[/sup] says Randi’s conditions are impossible to meet 2/ skeptics pile on to ask why 3/ PWMISOTBHFO says the conditions are like, roolly roolly complicated and Randi is a scam and you’ve all been suckered and and and you could never pass the conditions 4/ skeptics pile on to ask why 5/ PWMISOTBHFO fades away. [sub]\* Person who’s mind is so open their brain has fallen out[/sub] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-john-of-god-a-healer-or-a-charlatan/289491.md?page=5)