# Is joining independent clauses with a comma EVER allowed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 24, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741 "2015-05-24T20:20:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/1 "2015-05-24T20:20:31Z")
My first time starting a thread! Be gentle with me. 🙂 A friend of mine was recently complaining because, for some writing she is doing, she is required to use the Chicago Manual of Style. Specifically her complaint is that Chicago requires the use of a semicolon to connect two independent clauses. She says that this is “the complete opposite of how I was taught!” She prefers to use a comma to join the clauses, and says that she hates the use of the semicolon because “it just looks so wrong.” By way of illustration: I didn’t get any presents this year; everyone completely forgot my birthday. My friend would put a comma where I have a semicolon, thus: I didn’t get any presents this year, everyone completely forgot my birthday. The thing is, I’m not sure she can blame this on Chicago. I don’t believe that _any_ of the major style manuals allow for the use of a comma to connect independent clauses. The way I was taught, that creates a “comma splice,” and it’s incorrect. Nothing huge is riding on this, but it got me wondering. Is there any style manual that would approve the use of a comma in this situation? Before anyone suggests it, if I were writing it I would probably make it two separate sentences. My goal here is not to determine a better way of writing this sentence, but to find out if there is any source that would approve the second version of the sentence, with the clauses joined by a comma. Is it possible that she was taught to write that way? Or is it more likely that she’s gotten confused about something and internalized an incorrect rule of style? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/2 "2015-05-24T20:51:44Z")
In that example a semicolon is correct; a comma is incorrect. (Cite: Penguin Dictionary of English Grammar, p. 122). You can use a comma to replace a semicolon only if it is followed by ‘a connecting word like _and_, _or_, _while_, or _yet_ (but not _however_, which requires a _semicolon_)’. (Cite: ibid. p. 27). ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/3 "2015-05-24T21:21:36Z")
To the extent that people care about this stuff, you are correct. Your friend’s approach results in a comma splice, and should be fixed by using a semi-colon or adding a conjunction. I’m not sure if this stuff is taught at all in schools these days. I teach history at a four-year university, and the comma splice probably appears in at least fifty percent of the papers that my students submit. I keep correcting it, and they keep doing it. ---
**Author:** ![TATG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@TATG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TATG)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/4 "2015-05-24T21:28:19Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > You can use a comma to replace a semicolon only if it is followed by ‘a connecting word like _and_, _or_, _while_, or _yet_ (but not _however_, which requires a _semicolon_)’. (Cite: ibid. p. 27). And using “and” can result in independent clauses. (See multiple examples above.) So the answer to the thread question is that it is sometimes allowed. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/5 "2015-05-24T21:43:03Z")
What she’s describing is a comma splice and I know of no grammatically correct usage. ---
**Author:** ![Marion\_Wormer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d07c76/32.png) [@Marion\_Wormer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marion_Wormer)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/6 "2015-05-24T21:46:47Z")
If each clause can stand alone as a sentence, but you want to put them together in one sentence because they’re related, then a semi-colon is correct. I hope to God that previous sentence is correctly parsed. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/7 "2015-05-24T21:49:54Z")
The Harry Potter books are full of comma splices like this and they drive me nuts. But, yeah, I don’t think Chicago is unusual in this. Your friend must be misremembering. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/8 "2015-05-24T21:50:54Z")
When I read or hear a sentence like that, I infer a subordinate clause, like _for_/_because_. If that is what is meant, it seems to me a colon would be more appropriate than a semicolon. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/9 "2015-05-24T21:55:21Z")
> [@TATG](#): > > And using “and” can result in independent clauses. (See multiple examples above.) So the answer to the thread question is that it is sometimes allowed. I’m not understanding what you’re saying here. They already are independent clauses. “And” always joins independent clauses. A semicolon by itself is correct. A semicolon with “and” is correct. “And” by itself is correct. A comma with “and” is inelegant and possibly redundant but not incorrect. A comma by itself is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![TATG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@TATG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TATG)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/10 "2015-05-24T22:02:23Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m not understanding what you’re saying here. > > They already are independent clauses. “And” always joins independent clauses. > > A semicolon by itself is correct. A semicolon with “and” is correct. “And” by itself is correct. A comma with “and” is inelegant and possibly redundant but not incorrect. > > A comma by itself is wrong. I took it that a sentence like “And using “and” can result in independent clauses.” was itself an independent clause, or at least could be such. Is this incorrect? If it wasn’t incorrect, the thought was that a sentence like “I went to the shop, and I bought some milk.” would be an example where that which follows the comma is (or could be) an independent clause. If it is incorrect then my original post was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/11 "2015-05-24T22:10:01Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “And” by itself is correct. A comma with “and” is inelegant and possibly redundant but not incorrect. What? No. “And” by itself [is incorrect](https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/598/01/). The comma [is a requirement](https://www.hamilton.edu/writing/seven-sins-of-writing/the-second-deadly-sin-incorrect-punctuation-of-two-independent-clauses), neither inelegant nor redundant. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/12 "2015-05-24T22:11:59Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > Before anyone suggests it, if I were writing it I would probably make it two separate sentences. My goal here is not to determine a better way of writing this sentence, but to find out if there is any source that would approve the second version of the sentence, with the clauses joined by a comma. Thank you for stipulating that, because on this message board someone usually comes in and offers a rewriting of the problematic language, probably thinking they are impressing everyone with their wordsmithery, when actually it’s something that anyone could have done, and is completing evading the issue. > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > What she’s describing is a comma splice and I know of no grammatically correct usage. Really this isn’t about grammar. It’s purely a question of punctuation. The same rule applies to joining a dependent and independent clause without using a conjunction, _ **because it’s the conjunction itself that makes a clause dependent** _. > [@Acsenray](#): > > The Harry Potter books are full of comma splices like this and they drive me nuts. Yes, this is fundamentally about style, though the prohibition against comma splices in non-fiction is pretty much universal. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/13 "2015-05-24T22:15:55Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > What? No. “And” by itself [is incorrect](https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/598/01/). The comma [is a requirement](https://www.hamilton.edu/writing/seven-sins-of-writing/the-second-deadly-sin-incorrect-punctuation-of-two-independent-clauses), neither inelegant nor redundant. Yeah, I’m a little bit confused by that, too, so hopefully **Acsenray** can clarify. Using comma + “and” is perfectly normal (and correct) in joining two independent clauses. If the clause on the right is a dependent clause, the comma should not be used. (For example, “I went to the store and bought some bread” vs “I went to the store, and I bought some bread.”) There is sometimes an exception for independent clauses if the second clause is short (e.g. “I watched the ending of the movie and I wept” where a comma between “movie” and “I” would usually be called for.) ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/14 "2015-05-24T22:35:13Z")
Thanks for all the opinions, folks. **Acsenray** ’s mention of the Harry Potter books puts me in mind that comma splices like this probably do occur in fiction fairly often. Or at least, more often than in formal writing. Of course, fiction is frequently more casual in its usages. I have probably done, and read, more formal academic-type writing than my friend has, so I have probably encountered this usage more often than she has. This alone might account for my being more familiar with the rule. As a practical matter, of course, the Chicago Manual of Style is what she’s being required to use, so she’ll need to follow its prescriptions. But I’m sure she won’t like it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/15 "2015-05-24T22:39:12Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The Harry Potter books are full of comma splices like this and they drive me nuts. Umm, you left out the comma before “and”. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/16 "2015-05-24T22:48:03Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > As a practical matter, of course, the Chicago Manual of Style is what she’s being required to use, so she’ll need to follow its prescriptions. But I’m sure she won’t like it. 🙂 While I am generally a descriptivist when it comes to issues of language, my approach to writing in a formal setting is to follow whatever style guides are required for the situation. I honestly can’t think of a style guide that allows for such a construction as that in the OP to use a comma instead of a semi-colon. I’m wondering what your friend had been taught and whether she is simply misremembering or misunderstanding the rule. Comma splices are usually _bêtes noires_ for those who teach English grammar and writing classes. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/17 "2015-05-24T22:59:25Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I honestly can’t think of a style guide that allows for such a construction as that in the OP to use a comma instead of a semi-colon. I’m wondering what your friend had been taught and whether she is simply misremembering or misunderstanding the rule. I’m sure that she must be. That’s what made it so puzzling, was her insistence that she had actually been taught to use commas, rather than semicolons. And it’s not as if she didn’t understand what was going on–she herself identified them as “two independent clauses,” so she understands what an independent clause is. I didn’t want to come right out and say “Who the hell taught you this stuff?” 🙂 I suspect that she developed an incorrect understanding some time ago, and has never had reason to wonder about it until now. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/18 "2015-05-24T23:51:11Z")
> [@TATG](#): > > I took it that a sentence like “And using “and” can result in independent clauses.” was itself an independent clause, or at least could be such. Is this incorrect? “And” connects two independent clauses. It cannot connect two dependent clauses. > [@](#): > > If it wasn’t incorrect, the thought was that a sentence like “I went to the shop, and I bought some milk.” would be an example where that which follows the comma is (or could be) an independent clause. If it is incorrect then my original post was wrong. “I went to the shop” is an independent clause. “I bought some milk” is an independent clause. They can be connected by any coordinating conjunction, including “and.” > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > What? No. “And” by itself [is incorrect](https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/598/01/). The comma [is a requirement](https://www.hamilton.edu/writing/seven-sins-of-writing/the-second-deadly-sin-incorrect-punctuation-of-two-independent-clauses), neither inelegant nor redundant. This is wrong. For any two things that can be connected by “and” or “or,” whether words, phrases or clauses, the comma is unnecessary. > [@guizot](#): > > _ **because it’s the conjunction itself that makes a clause dependent** _. No, no, no. _And, but, or, nor, for_ and _yet_ connect independent clauses. They cannot make an independent clause into a dependent clause. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Yeah, I’m a little bit confused by that, too, so hopefully **Acsenray** can clarify. Using comma + “and” is perfectly normal (and correct) in joining two independent clauses. If the clause on the right is a dependent clause, the comma should not be used. (For example, “I went to the store and bought some bread” vs “I went to the store, and I bought some bread.”) There is sometimes an exception for independent clauses if the second clause is short (e.g. “I watched the ending of the movie and I wept” where a comma between “movie” and “I” would usually be called for.) The two independent clauses are “I went to the store” and “(I (implied)) bought some bread.” The second is not a dependent clause. > [@eschereal](#): > > Umm, you left out the comma before “and”. Nope. Any two things—words, phrases or clauses—can be connected by “and” or “or” without a comma. In these situations, the comma is not offering any grammatical functionality. It’s only when you get to three or more things that the comma becomes necessary. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/19 "2015-05-25T00:06:01Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The two independent clauses are “I went to the store” and “(I (implied)) bought some bread.” The second is not a dependent clause. Brain fart. I meant “compound predicate.” Those don’t get the comma. It would be “I went to the store and bought some bread,” but it would be “I went to the store, and I bought some bread.” ---
**Author:** ![TATG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@TATG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TATG)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/20 "2015-05-25T00:18:29Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “And” connects two independent clauses. It cannot connect two dependent clauses. I’ve so far said nothing about dependent clauses. “And” can be used that way, but I didn’t think it had to be so used. What is your take on a sentence like “And life goes on.” when taken independently of context. Or “And life goes on.” uttered in response to an event, rather than a sentence. > [@Acsenray](#): > > “I went to the shop” is an independent clause. “I bought some milk” is an independent clause. All I have said is consistent with this. The question I have is whether it could _also_ be the case that “and I bought some milk” is an independent clause. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741.md?page=2)