# Is joining independent clauses with a comma EVER allowed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 24, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741 "2015-05-24T20:20:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/21 "2015-05-25T00:23:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is wrong. For any two things that can be connected by “and” or “or,” whether words, phrases or clauses, the comma is unnecessary. If the clause forms a complete SV or SVO sentence that can stand on its own, the comma before the co-ordindate conjunction _is required_. This was mentioned upthread by **Chessic Sense** , as well as by my fourth grade teacher. The comma is optional and typically omitted for subordinate clauses. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/22 "2015-05-25T00:31:53Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, no, no. _And, but, or, nor, for_ and _yet_ connect independent clauses. They cannot make an independent clause into a dependent clause. Read what I posted again. Obviously I was referring to _subordinating_ conjunctions, such as _because_, _when_, _since_, etc. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/23 "2015-05-25T00:35:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > " > Nope. Any two things—words, phrases or clauses—can be connected by “and” or “or” without a comma. In these situations, the comma is not offering any grammatical functionality. It’s only when you get to three or more things that the comma becomes necessary. I agree that it is not adding any grammatical functionality, but all the style guides I am familiar with require or at least strongly prefer the comma before the “and” in the case of compound sentences, except in the case where the second clause is a brief one. The Purdue link given above is the guideline as I remember it from the Chicago Manual of Style and in my Associated Press Style guide. (“Use a comma if the subject of each clause is expressly stated: _We are visiting Washington, and we also plan a side trip to Williamsburg. We visited Washington, and our senator greeted us personally._ But no comma when the subject of the two clauses is the same and is not repeated in the second: _We are visiting Washington and plan to see the White House._”) ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/24 "2015-05-25T00:39:18Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Read what I posted again. Obviously I was referring to _subordinating_ conjunctions, such as _because_, _when_, _since_, etc. Of course, the comma is only required if the dependent clause is first. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/25 "2015-05-25T00:48:20Z")
I guess should clarify my point. The way I see it, a clause, in and of itself, is neither dependent nor independent. It’s the introduction of certain conjunctions that makes any clause dependent. Or another way of looking at it: All clauses are independent, until a subordinating conjunction is involved. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/26 "2015-05-25T00:49:14Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Of course, the comma is only required if the dependent clause is first. But is it optional or proper in a trailing subordinate clause? For example, adding a conjunction to the sentence in the OP, _I didn’t get any presents this year, because everyone completely forgot my birthday._ I have a hard time deciding whether that looks ok. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/27 "2015-05-25T01:01:05Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > But is it optional or proper in a trailing subordinate clause? For example, adding a conjunction to the sentence in the OP, > _I didn’t get any presents this year, because everyone completely forgot my birthday._ > I have a hard time deciding whether that looks ok. “They” say you shouldn’t–or at least that it isn’t necessary, though I guess some editors would accept it as a way to emphasize a “pause,” particularly in quoted speech. However, if the subordinate clause could somehow propositionally restrict the meaning of the main clause–and that is not your intent–then a comma is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/28 "2015-05-25T02:51:14Z")
Am I really the first to suggest the following to help make it easier to remember? Perhaps I missed it. [The Oatmeal’s Take on the Most Feared Punctuation on Earth](http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon) ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/29 "2015-05-25T02:57:41Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Am I really the first to suggest the following to help make it easier to remember? Perhaps I missed it. It looks like you are, though there are only 27 posts so far. Why is this particular explanation any more preferable over the others? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/30 "2015-05-25T04:52:29Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > It looks like you are, though there are only 27 posts so far. Why is this particular explanation any more preferable over the others? Honestly? Because the phrase about the aunt with the hairy knuckles always stood out as particularly memorable for me. I used this to illustrate semicolon use to my young nieces and nephews. I figured the answers had been sufficiently explained to allow for a bit of goofiness. If I was mistaken, mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/31 "2015-05-25T05:49:27Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Honestly? Because the phrase about the aunt with the hairy knuckles always stood out as particularly memorable for me. I used this to illustrate semicolon use to my young nieces and nephews. I figured the answers had been sufficiently explained to allow for a bit of goofiness. If I was mistaken, mea culpa. Not at all. Anything that can make semi-colons amusing is especially welcome! ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/32 "2015-05-25T08:00:41Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > When I read or hear a sentence like that, I infer a subordinate clause, like _for_/_because_. If that is what is meant, it seems to me a colon would be more appropriate than a semicolon. Absolutely not. That’s not what colons are for. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/33 "2015-05-25T11:48:10Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > I guess should clarify my point. The way I see it, a clause, in and of itself, is neither dependent nor independent. It’s the introduction of certain conjunctions that makes any clause dependent. Or another way of looking at it: All clauses are independent, until a subordinating conjunction is involved. IANA expert, but this sounds whacko. IMO: … If a clause contains an explicit subject and verb, or subject, verb, and object, then it \*can \*be independent. If it lacks enough of those ingredients (IOW it’s a fragment) then it \*must \*be dependent. I agree that a potentially-independent clause can be forced into dependency by a subordinating conjunction. But that doesn’t mean that all clauses are born independent. e.g. “I went to the store and bought some bread.” I think you’d be hard-pressed to argue successfully that “bought some bread” is an independent clause able to be a successful separate sentence exactly as worded. The lack of an explicit subject is what makes it dependent; it has verb and object only. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/34 "2015-05-25T15:30:45Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I think you’d be hard-pressed to argue successfully that “bought some bread” is an independent clause able to be a successful separate sentence exactly as worded. The lack of an explicit subject is what makes it dependent; it has verb and object only. _Bought some bread_–itself–is not a clause at all, so that’s not what we’re taking about. In this example, it’s part of a parallelism, so “technically” there’s an underlying clause implied, but in any case _a phrase_ which results from a parallelism is neither subordinate nor dependent in the strict sense of those terms. When you take a subject out of a clause, that just makes it a phrase. That’s not the same thing as subordination. ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/35 "2015-05-26T15:09:45Z")
If the clauses are short, you can probably get away with it. The best example is: \*\* I came, I saw, I conquered. \*\* Otherwise, no. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/36 "2015-05-26T15:37:58Z")
My question to the OP’s friend: if not this, what IS the proper use of a semicolon? It’s only reason for existence is to separate two independent clauses, to clue the reader to mentally reset his or her parser to expect an independent clause and not a dependent one. The longer the clauses, the more important this becomes. Meanwhile, I recently read (on Facebook or some other universally acknowledged authority) “Never use a semicolon. Just don’t.” Yeesh. It’s the Dumbing Down of English. While formal grammar doesn’t allow separating independent clauses by a comma, it’s a very common practice in informal writing. I doubt I’ve even seen a semicolon in a modern paperback novel. > [@TATG](#): > > And using “and” can result in independent clauses. (See multiple examples above.) So the answer to the thread question is that it is sometimes allowed. Only if beginning a sentence with a conjunction is allowed. Sure, I do it, but I know I’m breaking a grammatical rule when I do. Style trumps grammar. > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > What? No. “And” by itself [is incorrect](https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/598/01/). The comma [is a requirement](https://www.hamilton.edu/writing/seven-sins-of-writing/the-second-deadly-sin-incorrect-punctuation-of-two-independent-clauses), neither inelegant nor redundant. A comma is not required. This is perfectly acceptable grammar: I got up and I left. The comma can be very helpful in removing ambiguous interpretations, and is especially useful as a parsing aid for longer clauses, but it’s not required. > [@guizot](#): > > Really this isn’t about grammar. It’s purely a question of punctuation. Punctuation issues are definitely grammatical. Grammar is the set of rules to combine lexical elements together to form sentences or other grammatical constructs (e.g., clauses). Lexical elements include words and punctuation. > [@Acsenray](#): > > This is wrong. For any two things that can be connected by “and” or “or,” whether words, phrases or clauses, the comma is unnecessary. Right. It’s not required, though it can be recommended to improve clarity. > [@](#): > > It’s only when you get to three or more things that the comma becomes necessary. Bingo. This is also a case where a comma can be used to separate independent clauses: in a series: I got up, I left, and I never returned. You can do this with arbitrarily long clauses, though of course it becomes unwieldy at some point. (Cf James Joyce. 😉 ) > [@pulykamell](#): > > Brain fart. I meant “compound predicate.” Those don’t get the comma. It would be “I went to the store and bought some bread,” but it would be “I went to the store, and I bought some bread.” Or, “I went to the store and I bought some bread.” ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/37 "2015-05-26T21:39:21Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Punctuation issues are definitely grammatical. Grammar is the set of rules to combine lexical elements together to form sentences or other grammatical constructs (e.g., clauses). Lexical elements include words and punctuation. I don’t see how punctuation is included in [lexicology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexicology) (though I believe in a few very rate occasions they intersect). This issue [has come up here before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=393173). From a strictly linguistic point of view, punctuation is not part of grammar, but is about written conventions which sometimes derive from it. Some people use the term “grammar” in a very loose way to include anything involving language, and I get that. But this particular concern–the comma splice–is more like a typographical error: putting in the wrong symbol. The language is otherwise grammatical. If someone is speaking, you’re not going to “hear” comma splice. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/38 "2015-05-26T22:09:53Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Or, “I went to the store and I bought some bread.” Like I said, the American English style guides I am familiar with and quoted from do want that comma before “and” in the case of compound sentences. It certainly was one of the questions in my Associated Press copyediting class. Now, do I truly think it’s necessary? No. But the style guides, in my experience, do want it, unless the following clause is short. (See the Purdue link and my AP quote. Unfortunately, “short” is not defined by these style guides.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/39 "2015-05-26T22:12:48Z")
Also, see [here](http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/comma.html) under "compound sentences. > [@](#): > > A compound sentence contains two or more independent clauses linked by a coordinating conjunction. Independent clauses are those that can stand alone as complete sentences. The most common coordinating conjunctions are and, but, and or. In certain cases, nor, yet, so, and for act as coordinating conjunctions. > > Rule: Use a comma before a coordinating conjunction that joins two independent clauses. > > She purchased the car, but she declined the extended warranty. > > The prime minister’s plan seemed quickly and sloppily put together, and the opposition party immediately attacked it. > > Are you traveling in first class, or does your employer limit you to business class on international flights? > > I lost my job, so I can’t afford to go to Europe this summer. > > Exception to the rule: When the independent clauses are closely connected and short, you may omit the comma. > > Elizabeth flew to the conference and Nancy drove. That’s the guideline as I’ve always known it. I would always put the comma in the “and I bought my bread” example. I tend to favor “open punctuation,” but this is one example where I’m conservative, as nobody would ever say it’s “wrong” to put the comma in, but leaving it out may be objectionable to some (if not many) grammar-type folks. And, no, the comma does not indicate a vocal pause. I don’t know why people think commas always mean a pause. They do not. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741/40 "2015-05-26T23:42:51Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > And, no, the comma does not indicate a vocal pause. I don’t know why people think commas always mean a pause. They do not. Well, not a literal “pause” in the sense that one imagines the speaker taking a break to have a sip of water before continuing, but a comma is a separator that aids comprehension by separating distinct ideas. This is important in long sentences with independent clauses, as already noted, but it’s also important in preventing word run-ins, a plague of the comma-averse that tends to render a sentence ambiguous or even change its meaning entirely. As, for instance, in the following real headline: “Rachael Ray finds inspiration in cooking her family and her dog”. A headline that could surely have benefited from a couple of commas. My own view is that in a great many cases the use of the comma is arbitrary and should simply follow the cardinal rule of aiding comprehension, which is what all the other rules are really trying to achieve. As to the OP, yes, absolutely, the semicolon is correct; the comma is annoyingly wrong. The only potential problem with a semicolon is that its use may be conspicuous in informal writing because it tends to be somewhat rare in that context. My own inclination in informal writing is to use the em-dash instead, but it’s not a practice that I particularly want to defend. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joining-independent-clauses-with-a-comma-ever-allowed/720741.md?page=3)