# Is Joni Mitchell the most influential female musical artist of the late 20th century? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100 "2009-05-20T18:55:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/41 "2009-05-21T14:15:04Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > It’s “Rajah Khan,” and yes, that’s from _Prologue_, the first album by the Annie Haslam version of Renaissance. (There were two previous Renaissance albums with a completely different lineup.) Thanks, you beat me to it. Just for grins, here are some samples. A lot of Renaissance’s music was long, which is why they didn’t get much Top 40 airplay. Here’s Annie Haslim singing one of their shortest but best known songs, [Carpet of the Sun](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtSQFewjDD0&feature=related). And here’s Karen Carpenter singing [Top of the World](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91PpfWU-rmA). Both women have tremendous vocal control and pitch. I think that Karen has the edge over Annie in terms of presence and projection, but not by much. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/42 "2009-05-21T14:38:30Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Influence does not mean popular, critically acclaimed, or moneymaking. While Madonna is certainly at least two out of the three, she got/gets her fame from following trends, not creating them. This is incorrect in a critical way - its not that she follows trends; its that she takes “underground” or cult trends and blows them up into a form consumable in a cross-over way. - Her early Boy Toy / Lower East Side image - Her Vogue / gay disco image - Her high-fashion, sleek pop image - Her Sex / Empowerment image - Her Kabbalah/Yoga/Enlightened Cosmopolitan image etc…did she invent any of these? Nah - but she new what from each of these should be kept and what should be downplayed in order to blow the fad up to mass media levels. Again - that is \*very \*hard to do and a capability entirely worth respect. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/43 "2009-05-21T14:54:28Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Tons of artists say “Bob Dylan” was an influence on them, but how so? He certainly has had limited commerical appeal Snerk. That’s why he has had **18** Top Ten albums, including his new one, which immediately shot to #1 upon release. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/44 "2009-05-21T14:58:41Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Snerk. That’s why he has had **18** Top Ten albums, including his new one, which immediately shot to #1 upon release. and a career that has lasted over _four decades_. Yep, little commercial appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/45 "2009-05-21T15:00:03Z")
You forgot country and Goth which everyone agrees she helped bring to the forefront…or maybe not. In fact, she gets negative points for making them seem even less cool by association. Even as a child I didn’t think her warmed over New Wave act was anything new, and while she certainly brought fashions to the forefront starting with Vogue I am still not seeing anything new or influential musically. I can’t pinpoint any one musical artist really and say “hey, they took that from Madonna!” The closest I can get is Gwen Stefani. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/46 "2009-05-21T15:07:43Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I can’t pinpoint any one musical artist really and say “hey, they took that from Madonna!” The closest I can get is Gwen Stefani. Have you really been lucky enough to not even realize the existance of Britney Spears? What I wouldn’t give to live in your world. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/47 "2009-05-21T15:35:25Z")
More mid century than late, but Maybelle Carter not only was a revolutionary and much copied guitarist, she was the matriarch of a family that helped transform country music into a commercially successful form. ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/48 "2009-05-21T15:40:12Z")
Joni Mitchell was a heavyweight, for sure. She was very big in her day, although I don’t think that nowadays her music commands the appreciation it probably deserves. Confessional, introspective songs often seem to have a much shorter shelf life than pop fluff. As far as being influential, I’d say Aretha Franklin, Carole King, Dolly Parton have had much more impact than Joni Mitchell, with Emmylou Harris and Linda Ronstadt close behind. Joan Baez and Judy Collins were also contenders, as were Grace Slick and Janis Joplin (though, sadly, I think Joplin’s life story gets more attention than her music). In the little musical world I like to inhabit, other names pop up: Annie Briggs, Norma Waterson, Sandy Denny, Shirley Collins. For the benefit of the sub-thread going on here, as to who’s the best female singer I’ve ever heard, the hands-down winner is [Sandy Denny](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBmhvpiTSAU). I wouldn’t want to hear her singing “Respect,” though. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/49 "2009-05-21T15:48:33Z")
> [@kelly5078](#): > > For the benefit of the sub-thread going on here, as to who’s the best female singer I’ve ever heard, the hands-down winner is [Sandy Denny](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBmhvpiTSAU). I agree, though it’s worth acknowledging that she herself was strongly influenced by Joni Mitchell. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/50 "2009-05-21T16:23:43Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > I standby my original statements about the Madonna, but don’t feel much passion for the argument because of my deep respect for Mitchell. But this is a really cool discussion - well argued. \*\*gaffa \*\*- nice points about Kate Bush. Thank you. I figured, this being the Dope, that actual cites from a wide variety of artists about her influence on them would trump mere assertion. > [@](#): > > I don’t think of her as having the crossover, mass-media success that Madonna, or even Mitchell have had, but all your points are strong. No, not in the US. But the US is pretty unique in being the one country where Kate is not well known. She’s had [massive chart success](http://www.gaffaweb.org/faq/faq_chart_success.html) with her first single staying at #1 for a month and, prior to Princess Diana, Kate was the “Most Photographed Woman in Britain”. In the late 70s Kate had a hold on the public’s attention that Madonna has struggled to replicate and, more amazingly, she didn’t want it and retreated from the public eye. In the UK, the BBC recently featured her in a program called [“Queens of British Pop”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYpMsW9qJX0) a really decent introduction for those unfamiliar with her work and influence. When an influential female singer like Annie Lennox says, upon winning “Best Female Artist” at the Brit Awards, “I was really hoping Kate Bush would win!”, you know we’re talking about someone who is beloved by other artists and a significant influence. I really don’t know anyone else cited as an influence by both Sarah MacLachlan and Tupac. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/51 "2009-05-21T17:28:51Z")
In case anyone is interested, a link to the last [“Kate Bush is a genius”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=361899&highlight=Kate+Bush&page=1) thread on the SD. Started out by someone asking whether Kate Bush was all that or not and blew up when another poster claimed that Kate was “among the 15 or 20 most important musical figures of this century.”, an assertion that was met with some skepticism. Interestingly enough, that thread replicated virtually every one of gaffa’s talking points, although the claim that Kate \* invented \* the wireless mike was [largely busted](http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_tricks_trade_using/), though she may have pioneered an innovative use of the tool. Actually measuring the influence of singer is probably a sucker’s game (we all stand on the shoulders of giants), but in the US, probably more people could name a handful of Joni’s hits(\* everyone \* knows Big Yellow Taxi) while in the UK, I get the impression that more people would know Kate Bush’s songs. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/52 "2009-05-21T17:53:22Z")
Assuming we count spin-offs/solo careers, I’d have to go with The Runaways. They’d be hugely influential if all they’d ever done was _Cherry Bomb_, but they did so much more than that. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/53 "2009-05-21T17:54:48Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > You forgot country and Goth which everyone agrees she helped bring to the forefront…or maybe not. In fact, she gets negative points for making them seem even less cool by association. > > Even as a child I didn’t think her warmed over New Wave act was anything new, and while she certainly brought fashions to the forefront starting with Vogue I am still not seeing anything new or influential musically. I can’t pinpoint any one musical artist really and say “hey, they took that from Madonna!” The closest I can get is Gwen Stefani. Again, all reasonable to assert as opinion, but YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/54 "2009-05-21T18:25:06Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > In case anyone is interested, a link to the last [“Kate Bush is a genius”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=361899&highlight=Kate+Bush&page=1) thread on the SD. Started out by someone asking whether Kate Bush was all that or not and blew up when another poster claimed that Kate was “among the 15 or 20 most important musical figures of this century.”, an assertion that was met with some skepticism. > > Interestingly enough, that thread replicated virtually every one of gaffa’s talking points, although the claim that Kate \* invented \* the wireless mike was [largely busted](http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_tricks_trade_using/), though she may have pioneered an innovative use of the tool. Nobody has ever claimed that Kate “\*invented \* the wireless mike”, but that she invented the “headset performance microphone”. She had the idea to have something “like a telephonist’s headset” (in her words) and it was [constructed by Gordon “Gungi” Paterson](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meaGiD_yD7g#t=6m37s) who later worked with Shure turning it into a commercial product. The link you posted was about using wireless body mics. (I know a _bit_ about this as I was a sound engineer through the late 70s and was on the road doing sound for a Broadway tour in 1980.) The ECM-50s were concealed under clothing, or in wigs in Evita. Kate needed to get it closer to her mouth for a concert performance. Just before that, another wireless innovator, Todd Rundgren, used ECM-50s on modified paper-clip style book lights attached to the lapels of his band Utopia’s suit jackets. There were various approaches, but nobody was using a headset performance microphone before her. The link says that the author adopted the headset for “Starlight Express”, which didn’t appear until 1984. If Kate hadn’t come up with it, someone else would have, undoubtedly. As they say, when it’s “Steam Engine Time” if James Watt doesn’t invent it, someone else will. But my definition of “invention” is “the previously non-existent blindingly obvious”. > [@](#): > > Actually measuring the influence of singer is probably a sucker’s game (we all stand on the shoulders of giants), but in the US, probably more people could name a handful of Joni’s hits(\* everyone \* knows Big Yellow Taxi) while in the UK, I get the impression that more people would know Kate Bush’s songs. Again, “popularity” does not equal “influence”. Kate was presumably not being played in the neighborhoods where they grew up, but [Tupac](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPW4kT6iL3Y#t=2m30s) and Big Boi somehow heard her. The MC5 were never popular, but the joke that they sold 1000 copies of their record and that every one of those purchasers started a band is fairly accurate. You don’t have to be popular to be influential. The Rolling Stones cite [Big Bill Broonzy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bill_Broonzy) as their #1 influence. How many of his songs do you know? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100/55 "2009-05-21T21:18:44Z")
> [@kelly5078](#): > > Joni Mitchell was a heavyweight, for sure. She was very big in her day, although I don’t think that nowadays her music commands the appreciation it probably deserves. Confessional, introspective songs often seem to have a much shorter shelf life than pop fluff. > > As far as being influential, I’d say Aretha Franklin, Carole King, Dolly Parton have had much more impact than Joni Mitchell, with Emmylou Harris and Linda Ronstadt close behind. Joan Baez and Judy Collins were also contenders, as were Grace Slick and Janis Joplin (though, sadly, I think Joplin’s life story gets more attention than her music). > > In the little musical world I like to inhabit, other names pop up: Annie Briggs, Norma Waterson, Sandy Denny, Shirley Collins. > > For the benefit of the sub-thread going on here, as to who’s the best female singer I’ve ever heard, the hands-down winner is [Sandy Denny](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBmhvpiTSAU). I wouldn’t want to hear her singing “Respect,” though. I’d throw in Patsy Cline (although maybe she came and left a little too early in the timeline) and Laura Nyro ahead of Joplin, but I generally agree with this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-joni-mitchell-the-most-influential-female-musical-artist-of-the-late-20th-century/497100.md?page=2)