# Is Judaism still a major world religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253 "2014-10-14T00:20:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/21 "2014-10-14T18:29:09Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > While agreeing with the general gist of your post, that part above would refer more to _Jews_ punching above their weight, rather than _Judaism_. Judaism is the religion of the Jews - meaning that it’s not an abstract philosophy like Christianity and Islam, but rather a system of cultural practices and beliefs held by a specific group of people. It cannot exist in a vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/22 "2014-10-14T18:42:07Z")
Not to _you_. But to people asking a question about Judaism that only exists in relation to other religions, sure. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/23 "2014-10-14T19:27:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The latter seems like a pretty odd measure. Why? Measuring the world significance of a group by its impact strikes me as ‘meaningful’ as any other particular criteria one could establish. One aspect of its impact is the historical influence the religion has had. Another is the influence its members have right now, given that the question in the OP was whether it was " well past its prime on the world stage". What does performing “on the world stage” mean? I don’t see it as in any way unreasonable to say ‘it means what the people who call themselves Jews are up to _right now_, or in the _recent past_’. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/24 "2014-10-14T19:36:31Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > While agreeing with the general gist of your post, that part above would refer more to _Jews_ punching above their weight, rather than _Judaism_. A lot of that art and science was accomplished by atheists ;). I am an atheist and a Jew myself. The two are not incompatible; Judaism is unlike other religions in this. Being an atheist does not disqualify one from belonging to the religion, as it is not a religion based primarily on belief. To those who grew up in a Christian cultural milieu (I do not say “Christians” as many would be atheists), this can be difficult to accept - after all, a synonym for “religion” in English is “faith”, and for good reason. In Western culture generally, to be a member of a “religon” requires “faith”, that is belief, in a god. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/25 "2014-10-14T19:46:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > As I understand it, though, it seems unlikely that that’s always been the case; early Common-Era Judaism did [actively recruit converts from non-Jews](http://www.johndickson.org/uploads/2/3/8/8/23884833/missioncommitment_chap1.pdf) in some circumstances. I’ve always thought that was because people began killing us for it. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/26 "2014-10-14T19:47:49Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > One aspect of its impact is the historical influence the religion has had. Another is the influence its members have right now, given that the question in the OP was whether it was " well past its prime on the world stage". > > What does performing “on the world stage” mean? I don’t see it as in any way unreasonable to say ‘it means what the people who call themselves Jews are up to _right now_, or in the _recent past_’. It’s unreasonable because the OP’s question is not asking which religion has the best adherents. Moreover, the OP is asking specifically about the religion, not about Jewishness as a cultural identity. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/27 "2014-10-14T19:55:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s unreasonable because the OP’s question is not asking which religion has the best adherents. Moreover, the OP is asking specifically about the religion, not about Jewishness as a cultural identity. Meh - again, it strikes me as a meaningless difference in Jewish terms between “Judaism as a religion” and “Judaism as a cultural identity”. An athiest Jew is still a Jew as far as Jews are concerned. There seems to me to be no reason to impose Christian categories here. The issue isn’t “best adherents”, but impact “… on the world stage”. How exactly is a religion’s current impact “on the world stage” to be measured, if one subtracts or does not measure the current impact of the members of the religion? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/28 "2014-10-14T19:59:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > How exactly is a religion’s current impact “on the world stage” to be measured, if one subtracts or does not measure the current impact of the members of the religion? Empirically? Who knows, but your method makes less sense than any. It’s like calculating which political party has the most influence based on how many registered voters in each have Nobel prizes or Oscars. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/29 "2014-10-14T20:16:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Empirically? Who knows, but your method makes less sense than any. It’s like calculating which political party has the most influence based on how many registered voters in each have Nobel prizes or Oscars. That’s a really crappy analogy. The importance of political parties is measured in how they influence elections. In short, there exists a clear method of measuring their importance - one which obviously excludes such matters as Nobel Prizes or Oscars. What, exactly, is the clear and obvious way of measuring the current importance of a religion “… on the world stage”? There are various ways one could name - raw numbers of adherents is one; political, social, ecomomic and/or cultural importance of adherents is another. It strikes me that the latter makes at least as much sense as the former. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/30 "2014-10-14T20:28:02Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I am an atheist and a Jew myself. The two are not incompatible; Judaism is unlike other religions in this. Not unlike **all** other religions, though. There are plenty of religious identities and even belief systems that do not require belief in a deity. And Jews themselves are by no means unanimous on the claim that atheism and Judaism aren’t incompatible. In Orthodox Judaism, for example, accepting the idea of the divinity of the Creator and the divine origin of the Torah is considered a fundamental obligation for Jews. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/31 "2014-10-14T20:37:36Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > And Jews themselves are by no means unanimous on the claim that atheism and Judaism aren’t incompatible. About the only thing Jews are unanimous about is that Paul screwed it up. No, not even that; there are Messianic Jews. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/32 "2014-10-14T20:48:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Judaism is the religion of the Jews - meaning that it’s not an abstract philosophy like Christianity and Islam, but rather a system of cultural practices and beliefs held by a specific group of people. It cannot exist in a vacuum. > [@Malthus](#): > > Meh - again, it strikes me as a meaningless difference in Jewish terms between “Judaism as a religion” and “Judaism as a cultural identity”. Well, I’ll admit to some possible cultural blinders on this one - it’s true you can make a solid ontological argument in your favor. However… > [@Kimstu](#): > > And Jews themselves are by no means unanimous on the claim that atheism and Judaism aren’t incompatible. …counters to that could also be raised :). I guess in my mind Judaism as a religion has always had a kinda sorta Schrödinger’s cat relationship with modern _Jewishness_. I won’t argue too strongly if you want to insist that the two are one and the same, but it does cause a spark of cognitive dissonance in my tiny little brain. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/33 "2014-10-14T20:51:55Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Not unlike **all** other religions, though. There are plenty of religious identities and even belief systems that do not require belief in a deity. Fair. I meant in contrast to the various forms of Christianity that are the majority ‘world religions’ in the West. > [@](#): > > And Jews themselves are by no means unanimous on the claim that atheism and Judaism aren’t incompatible. In Orthodox Judaism, for example, accepting the idea of the divinity of the Creator and the divine origin of the Torah is considered a fundamental obligation for Jews. Yes, but even the Orthodox do not believe that those who do not believe in a divine being are “not Jews”. They are still Jews, just really _bad_ ones. 😃 In fact, the Orthodox do not even accept conversion to a wholly different religion as making one _cease_ to be a Jew (other forms of Judaism do). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/34 "2014-10-14T21:03:41Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Well, I’ll admit to some possible cultural blinders on this one - it’s true you can make a solid ontological argument in your favor. However… > > …counters to that could also be raised :). > > I guess in my mind Judaism as a religion has always had a kinda sorta Schrödinger’s cat relationship with modern _Jewishness_. I won’t argue too strongly if you want to insist that the two are one and the same, but it does cause a spark of cognitive dissonance in my tiny little brain. Again, though, the Orthodox are _not_ of the opinion that atheist Jews are not “really” Jews. According to the Orthodox, they are indeed Jews - just wrong-headed (or bad) Jews. Indeed, the Orthodox are even _more_ wedded to this notion than other Jews. For example, (most) other Jews take the position than one can voluntarily cease to be Jewish by the expedient of formally converting to a religion incompatible with Judaism (such as Christianity) - assuming you do it of your own free conviction (‘at gunpoint’ doesn’t count). Not so the Orthodox. According to them, a convert, who was once a Jew cannot voluntarily cease to be one (although it is theoretically possible to convert _to_ Orthodox Judaism - albeit, really really hard!). In short, Judaism is fundamentally unlike religions such as Christianity or Islam (even though they share an obvious common origin). It is a religion that is also an “identity”. This explains why many Zionist Jews consider themselves very “Jewish” even though a very high percentage of them are atheist (and, historically, derived their inspiration from nationalism and socialism, rather than faith in god - though in their case, the ‘nationalism’ included a good helping of myths taken from the Bible as the history of the Jewish Nation - even though they don’t believe in the God described therein!). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/35 "2014-10-14T21:07:58Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > (and, historically, derived their inspiration from nationalism and socialism, rather than faith in god - though in their case, the ‘nationalism’ included a good helping of myths taken from the Bible as the history of the Jewish Nation - even though they don’t believe in the God described therein!). See [“Romantic Nationalism”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_nationalism). The Zionists had the advantage of possessing the world’s most famous national epic. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253/36 "2014-10-14T23:08:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I am an atheist and a Jew myself. The two are not incompatible; Judaism is unlike other religions in this. Being an atheist does not disqualify one from belonging to the religion, as it is not a religion based primarily on belief. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Not unlike **all** other religions, though. There are plenty of religious identities and even belief systems that do not require belief in a deity. Hinduism and Buddhism, for example, are not incompatible with atheism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-judaism-still-a-major-world-religion/701253.md?page=1)