# Is Julian Assange a rapist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700 "2010-12-02T19:30:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/101 "2010-12-07T19:21:21Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I haven’t seen it put like that on any of the reports I’d seen. Apparently neither A nor B considered it rape. > > . Sez who? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/102 "2010-12-08T08:57:28Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Nope, it’s definitely not rape. It’s certainly is rude, and could probably be qualified as some sort of sexual assault. It is rape in the common law. Consent may be withdrawn at any time and if the man continues, it’s rape. _Kaitamaki v R_. Sweden, of course, is not a common law country, so this may not reflect the law there. But to say that it is “definitely” not rape to continue having sex with a woman after she has asked you to stop is quite inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/103 "2010-12-08T16:23:34Z")
Here’s some more detail on the charges from the wiki discussion page ":“_3) that in that court, “Gemma Lindfield, for the Swedish authorities, told (City of Westminster magistrates court) Assange was wanted in connection with four allegations. She said the first complainant, Miss A, said she was victim of ‘unlawful coercion’ on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner. The second charge alleged Assange ‘sexually molested’ Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her “express wish” one should be used. The third charge claimed Assange ‘deliberately molested’ Miss A on 18 August ‘in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity’. The fourth charge accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on 17 August without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.”_” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/104 "2010-12-08T16:59:52Z")
[scratches Sweden off list of potential vacation destinations] ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/105 "2010-12-08T17:04:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [scratches Sweden off list of potential vacation destinations] Why? It would seem like those acts, if they did occur as described, would be a crime in almost all countries, including the United States. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/106 "2010-12-08T17:06:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [scratches Sweden off list of potential vacation destinations] Ya, better stick with Thailand. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/107 "2010-12-08T17:15:02Z")
I moved **Ravenman** ’s post about the defense fund for PFC Bradley Manning to “[What is WikiLeaks’ mission?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13228056)” It was originally post #103 in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/108 "2010-12-08T17:38:48Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > It is rape in the common law. Consent may be withdrawn at any time and if the man continues, it’s rape. _Kaitamaki v R_. There’s a detailed analysis of English common law rape in _Battle v. State_, 414 A. 2d 1266 (1980), which reaches the opposite conclusion: > [@Battle v. State](#): > > Given the fact that consent must precede penetration, it follows in our view that although a woman may have consented to a sexual encounter, even to intercourse, if that consent is withdrawn prior to the act of penetration, then it cannot be said that she has consented to sexual intercourse. On the other hand, **ordinarily if she consents prior to penetration and withdraws the consent following penetration, there is no rape.** (emphasis added) This view was held to be merely dicta in _State v. Baby_, 946 A. 2d 463 (2008), but that case dealt with the statutory crime, not the common law crime. Nor do I think that “Kaitamaki v R.” is directly on point. So far as I can tell from Google summaries, that case involves a man who never had consent, but believed he did initially, and then failed to stop after he realized he did not. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/109 "2010-12-08T18:24:17Z")
> [@Hawkins](#): > > Whoopie Goldberg says it was rape, but not rape rape. Succinctly put. Do those that say it’s definitely rape, full stop, also agree with this? Or would you put him in the sex offenders’ cell block and consider him as despicable as anyone else in there? Note that a lot would depend on testimony. If they were smooching, she asked him to use a condom, he said no, and forced himself on her anyway, that’s different than midway through the act, him telling her it broke yet not stopping. This is not to excuse the latter, but (IMHO) they are two different things. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/110 "2010-12-08T18:49:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There’s a detailed analysis of English common law rape in _Battle v. State_, 414 A. 2d 1266 (1980), which reaches the opposite conclusion: > > (emphasis added) > > This view was held to be merely dicta in _State v. Baby_, 946 A. 2d 463 (2008), but that case dealt with the statutory crime, not the common law crime. > > Nor do I think that “Kaitamaki v R.” is directly on point. So far as I can tell from Google summaries, that case involves a man who never had consent, but believed he did initially, and then failed to stop after he realized he did not. The implications of that seem really disturbing. If a woman consents to sex, but then wants to stop, she has to continue having it until the guy decides it’s over? Or does that law just mean that anyone who’s having sex can continue having it until they feel like it as long as their partner consented to the initial penetration? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/111 "2010-12-08T19:00:32Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > The implications of that seem really disturbing. If a woman consents to sex, but then wants to stop, she has to continue having it until the guy decides it’s over? Or does that law just mean that anyone who’s having sex can continue having it until they feel like it as long as their partner consented to the initial penetration? Or maybe it could be some other kind of offense but not rape. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/112 "2010-12-08T19:22:21Z")
I heard on TV that some of those who were named in the complaints, did not want to press charges. This is not rape as we see it . It is possible to get a 700 dollar fine for this. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/113 "2010-12-08T21:54:22Z")
Myself, I am neutral on the subject and his possible guilt. The timing is rather odd, no doubt. We shall see. Here’s an Australian article: [http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-d](http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-d)…-1225967892481 ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/114 "2010-12-08T22:33:45Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > The implications of that seem really disturbing. If a woman consents to sex, but then wants to stop, she has to continue having it until the guy decides it’s over? Or does that law just mean that anyone who’s having sex can continue having it until they feel like it as long as their partner consented to the initial penetration? I think the implication is really that the common law aspect isn’t that important (in England) since English criminal law became codified. I presume rape is now an offense under the English criminal code, and I’d be willing to bet (in other words, I am too lazy to research) that this would be criminal behavior in England. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/115 "2010-12-09T02:09:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Or maybe it could be some other kind of offense but not rape. Ahem, that was kind of my point. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/116 "2010-12-10T05:35:26Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I think the implication is really that the common law aspect isn’t that important (in England) since English criminal law became codified. I presume rape is now an offense under the English criminal code, and I’d be willing to bet (in other words, I am too lazy to research) that this would be criminal behavior in England. You misunderstand the “common law” comments. It is not saying that US or UK law is not written down. Rather, there is a heritage of law that comes from the “Common Law” that is now codified but follows the principles of that system, and there is a different heritage of law that is called “civil law” that places less priority on precedent. > **[Common law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law)** > > Common law (also known as judicial precedent, judge-made law, or case law) is the body of law primarily developed through judicial decisions rather than statutes. Although common law may incorporate certain statutes, it is largely based on precedent—judicial rulings made in previous similar cases. The presiding judge determines which precedents to apply in deciding each new case. > Common law is deeply rooted in the principle of stare decisis ("to stand by things decided"), where courts follow p... With regards to “rape”, that word is a loaded word. Many people have a notion of “rape” as being forceful coercion. The implication is an act of physical aggression - restraint, striking, or threats to compel the act. However, what others are arguing is that the act of “rape” is not defined by the violence of the coercion, but by the violation of consent. If consent is not given, or consent is revoked, then further actions are rape. With regards to the accusations, as I read the articles and quotes by **DrDeth** , one of the claims is that he had consentual sex with woman B using a condom as agreed, went to sleep in the same bed, and then she awoke in the morning to him having sex with her without a condom. That violated the terms of her consent - use of a condom. He engaged in sex after being told the conditions in violation of those conditions. That is a violation of consent. **Freudian Slit** said: > [@](#): > > The implications of that seem really disturbing. If a woman consents to sex, but then wants to stop, she has to continue having it until the guy decides it’s over? Or does that law just mean that anyone who’s having sex can continue having it until they feel like it as long as their partner consented to the initial penetration? Wait, are you suggesting the implication is that once she consents 1 time, she is forced to always have sex with him until he decides the relationship is over? Clearly that is not what that says. The statement appears to be saying that if she consents prior to penetration and then after penetration withdraws consent, it does not constitute rape. What it does constitute, if anything, is not specified by that quote. It _appears_ to be arguing that if consent was given during the first act of penetration, then the man can continue to completion and consent cannot be withdrawn midway. Without looking further, that is how it reads to me. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/117 "2010-12-10T05:40:13Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > **Freudian Slit** said: > Wait, are you suggesting the implication is that once she consents 1 time, she is forced to always have sex with him until he decides the relationship is over? Clearly that is not what that says. > > The statement appears to be saying that if she consents prior to penetration and then after penetration withdraws consent, it does not constitute rape. What it does constitute, if anything, is not specified by that quote. It _appears_ to be arguing that if consent was given during the first act of penetration, then the man can continue to completion and consent cannot be withdrawn midway. Without looking further, that is how it reads to me. Well, I meant that if a guy is having sex with a woman and she consents to penetration but then revokes that consent, the law says it’s not rape if he continues. That makes it sound like once a guy is in he can keep doing it until he wants to stop. Or it’s not rape anyway. If it were considered to at least be some kind of sexual assault, that would be good because otherwise it seems to imply that even if a woman doesn’t want to continue, the guy can just keep going until he decides he’s through. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/118 "2010-12-10T06:47:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nor do I think that “Kaitamaki v R.” is directly on point. So far as I can tell from Google summaries, that case involves a man who never had consent, but believed he did initially, and then failed to stop after he realized he did not. Those were the factual circumstances. The reason it’s relevant is because the court held that in a continuing act, the accused is liable if mens rea and actus reus coincide at any point - so where he realised that she was not in fact consenting the act became rape. I haven’t read the entire decision, but the textbooks I used in Criminal Law all give it as authority for the principle that consent must be present throughout the sexual act, and that initially consensual sex becomes rape if consent is withdrawn and the man refuses to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/119 "2010-12-10T12:26:49Z")
[New Development](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/assange-accuser-stops-cooperating-police/?hl=en): Supposedly, one of Assange’s accusers has fled Sweden to the Palestinian territories, and is no longer co-operating with the investigation. Apparently, this is why charges are a long time in coming. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700/120 "2010-12-10T12:57:31Z")
I haven’t seen any really solid confirmation, but that’s the one who supposedly posted praise about Assange on Twitter after the supposed rape, and then deleted the posts around the time she went to the police. She’s also the one who posted on her blog about [getting revenge on cheating boyfriends](http://translate.google.com.au/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fannaardin.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F01%2F19%2Fsjustegsmodell-for-laglig-hamnd%2F). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-julian-assange-a-rapist/562700.md?page=7)