# Is Ken Lay innocent now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 6, 2006, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316 "2006-07-06T03:34:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/21 "2006-07-07T00:21:29Z")
Do his relatives or other benificiarie in any way benefit from the fact that, now, there is no fine that is going to be levied? -Kris ---
**Author:** ![Dracona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ea5d25/32.png) [@Dracona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dracona)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/22 "2006-07-07T00:55:09Z")
It’s a damned shame that he died. I was adopted by my grandparents when I was 13 months old (my unwed mother died in a car wreck that we were in.) Six years later, my grandfather was dying of cancer in hospital, and his last phone call was from Ken Lay. My “mom” kept our Enron stock (which doubled every other year) for my college tuition. In short, she still has a pension. But our stock, which was worth more than 100k (and doubling every 2 years) is gone, her medical insurance is gone, and our family friends with younger husbands have all lost their life savings. I’m helping manager friends right now by working in their KFC for pennies above minimum wage. I’m a member of MENSA. I’m a National Merit Scholar. And my professors (pre-Enron) were grooming me for a chance to be a Rhodes scholar. I had to leave school. My husband had to leave school. We owe more than 50,000 dollars for education we cannot use. We cannot access or transcripts due to our academic debts. I hated Ken Lay, but damn him for dying because his victims are now even less likely to get justice. _stalks off, growling_ ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/23 "2006-07-07T01:11:23Z")
easy answer: mrs lay may get somewhere close to half. lay’s estate would pay any debts against it, inheritance tax, mrs lay and those mentioned in his will would get what ever is left. long answer: feds are gonna be all over this estate trying to find any possible legal way to get something… anything from his estate. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/24 "2006-07-07T01:18:26Z")
_tinfoil_ I think Lay killed himself, or was killed by someone “close” to him. The timing, and the consequences of the event, are just too suspicious.[/tinfoil] -Kris (Who also suspects Bin Ladin (or anyway, the “Bin Ladin” people") pretty much won on september 11th and the administration is taking orders from him/them. So pay no attention to me.) ---
**Author:** ![Dracona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ea5d25/32.png) [@Dracona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dracona)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/25 "2006-07-07T03:07:05Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] _tinfoil_ I think Lay killed himself, or was killed by someone “close” to him. The timing, and the consequences of the event, are just too suspicious.[/tinfoil] [/QUOTE] I’ve honesly been thinking the same thing. That has caused me to call a dead man a bastard more times than I care to admit this past week. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/26 "2006-07-07T04:40:14Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] I, also, would love it if a U.S. lawyer would chime in. [/QUOTE] You should correct that to say “I would live it if **one** U.S. lawyer would chime in.” If there’s more than one, they will argue about it until the cows come home and we will all just walk away with a headache. Here’s what the Los Angeles Times had to say (you probably need to create an account with their website to read the article, and soon the article will be archived): > **[Death Puts Lay Conviction in Doubt](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-jul-06-fi-lay6-story.html)** > > Since the Enron founder can't appeal, criminal charges may be voided. Civil cases against those tied to the scandal are expected to continue. > [@](#): > > Lay, who at age 64 succumbed to a massive heart attack at a rented Colorado vacation home, was found guilty by a federal jury in May along with former Enron Chief Executive Jeffrey K. Skilling of conspiracy and fraud. … > > But when a defendant who pleaded not guilty dies before sentencing, as Lay did, in most cases the conviction is wiped out on the grounds that the defendant did not have the opportunity to appeal, legal experts said. > > “Fifth Circuit law in particular is clear on this point,” Stanford University law professor Robert Weisberg said Wednesday, referring to the federal region that includes Houston. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/27 "2006-07-07T04:49:04Z")
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat] Just for the record, in the U.S. we don’t hold children (or grandchildren) responsible for the crimes of their parents (or grandparents). Taking away his ill-gotten gains: a good thing. Punishing his family for generations to come: not a good thing (unless you can prove that they were complicit in his crimes). [/QUOTE] His children won’t be punished, they just won’t inheirit. His family has no right to his ill-gotten gains. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/28 "2006-07-07T05:28:28Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] His children won’t be punished, they just won’t inheirit. His family has no right to his ill-gotten gains. [/QUOTE] But if the conviction is wiped out there _are_ no ill-gotten gains. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/29 "2006-07-07T05:36:14Z")
[QUOTE=aldiboronti] But if the conviction is wiped out there _are_ no ill-gotten gains. [/QUOTE] A civil suit against his estate is still possible (just harder). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/30 "2006-07-07T14:55:36Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] OK, I am **not** a lawyer, but here’s what I understand: 1. He has been found guilty by a competent court of law. That guilty verdict is binding until and unless reversed on appeal. [/quote] True. > [@](#): > > 1. The fact that an appeal was pending at time of death is immaterial to the above. Remember “presumed innocent until proven guilty”? The flip side of that is present here. He has been convicted on grounds that warrant potential for an appeal. Hence he is to be presumed guilty until reversible error is established, on the basis of the presumed validity of the actions of the trial court. Not true. Here’s why. While it’s true that for purposes of an appeal he’s lost the presumption of innocence – that is, his posture before the appeals court is that the burden is on HIM to show why his verdict is flawed – it’s also true that he no longer has a chance to exercise that right. He cannot go to the appeals court and say, for example, “Yes, the verdict was guilty, but the trial court admitted this piece of evidence in error, failed to exclude this other piece of evidence as it should have, and announced to the jury before they began deliberations that they should have a short day because I was obviously guilty as hell.” (Not that this actually happened, of course, for any readers that may be hypothetical-challenged). Because he is denied that basic part of his rights, and because he cannot possibly exercise them, the general remedy is to void his conviction. > [@](#): > > 1. A civil (tort) proceeding against his estate for his presumably ill-gotten gains is not, AFAIK, affected by his state of corporateness. It’s not, and it may proceed. But there is a problem of proof – the nice thing about a criminal conviction is that it makes the civil case for you. Without that, going after the assets is a bit more of a battle. Normally, you sue the wrongdoer, and obtain a judgement against him; he must then satisfy the judgement with his ill-gotten gains. Now, you can’t sue the wrongdoer - he’s dead. You have to sue the assets themselves, in a kind of a civil _in rem_ procedure. (I welcome correction on this point from those more versed in civil law than I). ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/31 "2006-07-07T17:46:50Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Now, you can’t sue the wrongdoer - he’s dead. You have to sue the assets themselves, in a kind of a civil _in rem_ procedure. [/QUOTE] Were civil action to be taken against those assets, is there again a time constraint at play here? Does an action need to be started before the assets are inherited by his relatives or would that be considered suing the wrongdoer? Also, how must Lay be refered to now by the media, the courts, etc? He’s not exactly “innocent”, yet he’s no longer a “convicted felon” either is he? ---
**Author:** ![samm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@samm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/32 "2006-07-07T18:05:53Z")
[QUOTE=Dracona] I’m helping manager friends right now by working in their KFC for pennies above minimum wage. I’m a member of MENSA. I’m a National Merit Scholar. And my professors (pre-Enron) were grooming me for a chance to be a Rhodes scholar. I had to leave school. My husband had to leave school. We owe more than 50,000 dollars for education we cannot use. We cannot access or transcripts due to our academic debts. [/QUOTE] Sorry to sidetrack the conversation, but I don’t understand this. Why did you have to leave school? I owe student loans as well, but it is not keeping me from accessing any transcripts. Why do you owe anything if there was $100k set aside for your schooling? I understand that the money isn’t there now, but how did you rack up $50,000? Were you just going to wait until you graduated to pay it all off? If you are really that smart, even without a degree, you could find something better than KFC. Sorry if this is too personal or inappropriate. It just seems too disturbing, I had to ask. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/33 "2006-07-07T18:29:49Z")
[QUOTE=lieu] Were civil action to be taken against those assets, is there again a time constraint at play here? Does an action need to be started before the assets are inherited by his relatives or would that be considered suing the wrongdoer? Also, how must Lay be refered to now by the media, the courts, etc? He’s not exactly “innocent”, yet he’s no longer a “convicted felon” either is he? [/QUOTE] The media can refer to him however they like. He’s dead and the dead cannot be defamed. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/34 "2006-07-07T21:10:17Z")
1. My guess is that \*\*Northern Piper \*\* lives on Lunt Street in Chicago. 2. Amazingly enough, my wife told me today that there is, in fact, a conspiracy theory floating around Snowmass (where our daughter lives) that matches C K Dexter Haven’s peculiar idea, above. I, for one, think that aliens probably abducted him and his money and have him stashed in a freezer on planet Zork. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/35 "2006-07-10T21:10:04Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] His children won’t be punished, they just won’t inheirit. His family has no right to his ill-gotten gains. [/QUOTE] Oh, I understand this fully. I don’t believe that his family should receive any money that wasn’t rightfully his. That wasn’t the question, though. I doubt that the Lay family would be totally destitute, with grandchildren driven to prostitution, just by taking away “ill-gotten gains.” **SandyHook** was digging for something much deeper than just taking back money Lay shouldn’t have had. The statement I was responding to called for taking his money, his children’s, and his grandchildren’s. All of it. Not just “ill-gotten” money. Here, re-read the quote: [QUOTE=SandyHook] I’m only an illegal, and at most sporadic, doper, but I hope they sue his estate to the point where his grandchildren have to prostitute themselves to be able to afford a decent nanny. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/36 "2006-07-10T21:26:59Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] " **Bricker! Minty Green! Jodi! Dewey! Campion! I summon thee!!** :: sits back to await results:: [/QUOTE] ::sniff:: ☹ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/37 "2006-07-10T22:40:27Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] It’s not, and it may proceed. But there is a problem of proof – the nice thing about a criminal conviction is that it makes the civil case for you. Without that, going after the assets is a bit more of a battle. Normally, you sue the wrongdoer, and obtain a judgement against him; he must then satisfy the judgement with his ill-gotten gains. Now, you can’t sue the wrongdoer - he’s dead. You have to sue the assets themselves, in a kind of a civil _in rem_ procedure. (I welcome correction on this point from those more versed in civil law than I). [/QUOTE] The civil cases now pending against Lay, including the SEC cases, can still proceed, with one important caveat: compensatory damages only. Punitive damages aren’t allowed since there’s really nobody to punish. The conviction can’t be used in a civil trial, but Lay chose to testify in his defense, and that testimony can come in. The plaintiff’s lawyers believe that testimony should be more than enough to support a civil judgment. They’re probably right, but plaintiff’s lawyers are notoriously optimistic. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/38 "2006-07-11T03:30:47Z")
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat] Oh, I understand this fully. I don’t believe that his family should receive any money that wasn’t rightfully his. That wasn’t the question, though. I doubt that the Lay family would be totally destitute, with grandchildren driven to prostitution, just by taking away “ill-gotten gains.” **SandyHook** was digging for something much deeper than just taking back money Lay shouldn’t have had. The statement I was responding to called for taking his money, his children’s, and his grandchildren’s. All of it. Not just “ill-gotten” money. Here, re-read the quote: [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t he have put a whole lot of ill-gotten money in his wife and children’s names so that it doesn’t look like he earned (for want of better term) it? You know, like most crooks do? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/39 "2006-07-11T04:29:25Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] ::sniff:: ☹ 😉 [/QUOTE] oh my good heavens! how could I have forgotten **pravnik**! :eek: :smack: **pravnik** , who once nicely complimented me on my explanation of criminal procedure in a civil jurisdiction! My humble apologies! (it was three in the morning). There, there [hands **pravnik** a nice little hanky] Blow your nose and dash a little cold water on your forehead. You’ll feel much better. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316/40 "2006-07-11T04:31:11Z")
[QUOTE=CC] 1. My guess is that \*\*Northern Piper \*\* lives on Lunt Street in Chicago. [/QUOTE] no, no - _rhymes with_, not _synonom for_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ken-lay-innocent-now/363316.md?page=1)