# Is Kerry "out of the mainstream"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 17, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517 "2004-07-17T00:25:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/21 "2004-07-17T06:32:04Z")
Watching Bush supporters accuse John Kerry of being “out of the mainstream” is like watching Dennis Rodman try to be a fashion critic.
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### Author:  [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/22 "2004-07-17T06:45:07Z")
Or vice versa
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/23 "2004-07-17T06:45:08Z")
No, I think that the Bush Administration is out of the mainstream. That is why The Republican National Convention will be calling upon its more liberal members to speak even though they do not support some main issues of the Republican platform.
(Some of you have some really weird views on what rich people are like.)
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### Author:  [@factorial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/factorial)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/24 "2004-07-17T06:50:18Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#):
>
> Gee, I guess you have to be in “John Kerry’s mainstream” to access that article… or be a regular subscriber to “[Salon.com](http://Salon.com)” - now\* that \* sounds mainstream, for sure… must be a real reputable news source… or, you can watch a commercial to get in… if you trust them to plant cookies in your computer… Is this kinda like an online national Enquirer?
Is this some kind of joke? Do you fault the Washington Times for requiring you to pay for it, and for having advertisements in it? Anyway, I’d trust [Salon.com](http://Salon.com) much farther than the Washington Times. The article linked describes the wackiness of the owner of the Wash. Times, Rev. Sun Myung Moon. He thinks he’s the Second Coming. Is thinking he’s “the Messiah” in “George Bush’s mainstream”?
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/25 "2004-07-17T06:50:43Z")
**elucidator** , I’ve narrowed it down. You are either the good twin to P.J. O’Rourke’s evil twin or you are Molly Ivins. How close am I?
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/26 "2004-07-17T06:58:59Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> It;s true as far as Kerry’s upbringing VS. W’s. The Shrubster grew up with true wealth and privelege, Kerry just grew up as upper middle class. I don’t know exactly what Kerry’s father’s status was with the State Department, but _my_ father has been at State for 23 years and while he does relatively well, he’s not a millionaire.
[Time ran a long bio of Kerry recently.](http://www.time.com/time/election2004/article/0,18471,660967,00.html)
and I wish I could link to the whole thing now. But they do agree with you. Basically what they said about this issue was that while they lived an area that had a lot of wealthy people, the Kerrys themselves were not rich. They definitely weren’t poor, but they weren’t rich like the people around them. John Kerry’s grandfather was wealthy enough, but his estate was spread out among eleven children.
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### Author:  [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/27 "2004-07-17T07:07:04Z")
> [@Zoe](#):
>
> (Some of you have some really weird views on what rich people are like.)
Oh? Like what, Zoe? Give us some specifics! Why don’t you enlighten us???
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/28 "2004-07-17T07:17:08Z")
Dammit, I have no idea why that happened. 😛
From the article:
> [@](#):
>
> But the image of Kerry as a Boston Brahmin misses one point; he managed to have a privileged upbringing without the wealth that usually goes with it. From the outside he was an American prince, but within his rarefied world, he was actually one of the poor kids. “John was never a part of the Eastern elite, if you will, whatever that means,” says David Thorne, a close friend going back to Yale days. “He was not in demeanor or otherwise the product of a rich family.” Thorne, the product of a very rich family, knows the difference.
David Thorne is the brother of Kerry’s ex-wife, Julia Thorne.
> [@](#):
>
> […] the Forbes shipping clan’s fortune allowed the family to collect mansions all over the world. But [his mother] was one of 11 kids, which meant the money didn’t stretch too far across her generation. John Kerry got to spend time at the family estate in France, but the reason he and his siblings could attend the fancy schools they did was that his great-aunt Clara had no children of her own and paid their way.
They don’t explain exactly what Richard Kerry did. He was in the Air Corps at one point, was with the State Department (they moved around a lot during that time, and John Kerry spent two years at a boarding school in Switzerland, another thing the GOP has raised as a character flaw at times, while his father was stationed in Germany, and later Richard retired to private law.
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### Author:  [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/29 "2004-07-17T07:17:48Z")
> [@factorial](#):
>
> Is this some kind of joke? Do you fault the Washington Times for requiring you to pay for it, and for having advertisements in it?
I didn’t have to pay to access the Washington Times article online. I couldn’t get access to that “news” piece unless I _did_ pay. I’m sure it was very entertaining, but since I can’t access it, I’ll never know.
> [@factorial](#):
>
> Anyway, I’d trust [Salon.com](http://Salon.com) much farther than the Washington Times.
Frankly, I don’t know how much to trust either one, but I’m not likely to buy a pig in a poke.
> [@factorial](#):
>
> The article linked describes the wackiness of the owner of the Wash. Times, Rev. Sun Myung Moon. He thinks he’s the Second Coming. Is thinking he’s “the Messiah” in “George Bush’s mainstream”?
Why ask me? You read the article, right? So tell us about it, don’t just make vague innuendoes… or is that all the article does? Gee, glad I didn’t subscribe!
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/30 "2004-07-17T07:19:15Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#):
>
> Why ask me? You read the article, right? So tell us about it, don’t just make vague innuendoes… or is that all the article does? Gee, glad I didn’t subscribe!
Are you seriously that unaware of who Rev. Moon is?
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### Author:  [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/31 "2004-07-17T07:20:14Z")
John Kerry’s grandfather was an Austrian Jewish brewer named Frederick Kohen, who converted to Catholicism and raised his children Catholic. That would make Kerry’s father Jewish (even though he was raised Catholic.) So indeed, he was different from the WASP elite of the area in that he was both Catholic in religion and part-Jewish in ethnicity.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/32 "2004-07-17T07:33:48Z")
Boy, **Snakespirit** , you’re lacking in motivation. The blurb says “Want to read the whole article? You have two options: Subscribe now, **or watch a brief ad and get a free day pass.** ” So you don’t have to pay a damn thing. Of course, if you’re trying to get out of reading it because you don’t want to…
> [@](#):
>
> On March 23, the Dirksen Senate Office Building was the scene of a coronation ceremony for Rev. Sun Myung Moon, owner of the conservative Washington Times newspaper and UPI wire service, who was given a bejeweled crown by Rep. Danny K. Davis, D-Ill. Afterward, Moon told his bipartisan audience of Washington power players he would save everyone on Earth as he had saved the souls of Hitler and Stalin – the murderous dictators had been born again through him, he said. In a vision, Moon said the reformed Hitler and Stalin vouched for him, calling him “none other than humanity’s Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent.”
The man is about three miles beyond batshit crazy.
[I think this link should let you read the story.](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/06/21/moon/) If you don’t want to read it, of course, you don’t have to. But stop pretending you can’t and trying to use it against **factorial**.
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### Author:  [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/33 "2004-07-17T07:38:55Z")
A google search shows several accessible, non-elitist, sources describing the article **Minty** pointed to that was hidden from “mainstream” eyes by [salon.com](http://salon.com).
Looks like Moon, (the owner of the Washington Post) duped some democratic and republican congressmen and senators to participate in a “crowning” of him on federal property.
John kerry wasn’t there, evidently, neither was George Bush.
Shit, even the Washington Post had a derisive article about the event!
Can we go back to the OP now?
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/34 "2004-07-17T07:47:45Z")
**Lamar** replied to **Marley** : \*"[…] the Bushes were surely more wealthy than the Kerrys, but whatever…"
I don’t think that is true.
Regardless, it puts him out of the “mainstream”, don’t ya think?\*
Bush and Kerry finances according to their [2003 tax returns](http://www.channelone.com/news/2004/07/08/ap_election_millionaires/):
> [@](#):
>
> […] the median household income in 2002 was slightly more than $42,400, according to the Census Bureau. Only about 2 percent of homes make more than $200,000. […]
>
> Bush and his wife, Laura, listed $822,126 in adjusted gross income on their 2003 returns, while Kerry’s income was about $393,000. The four-term Massachusetts senator has four trusts worth between $430,000 and $2.1 million.
>
> The Democratic candidate filed his return separately from his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, heiress to the $500 million Heinz Co. fortune. She released information showing earnings of at least $5 million in 2003.
Obviously, in economic terms the Kerrys are indeed well out of the “mainstream”, but so are the Bushes and Cheneys. In general, Republican leaders who try to paint Democratic leaders as some sort of “rich elite” are living in glass houses.
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### Author:  [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/35 "2004-07-17T07:48:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Boy, **Snakespirit** , you’re lacking in motivation. The blurb says “Want to read the whole article? You have two options: Subscribe now, **or watch a brief ad and get a free day pass.** ” So you don’t have to pay a damn thing. Of course, if you’re trying to get out of reading it because you don’t want to…
>
> The man is about three miles beyond batshit crazy.
>
> [I think this link should let you read the story.](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/06/21/moon/) If you don’t want to read it, of course, you don’t have to. But stop pretending you can’t and trying to use it against **factorial**.
No, your link was as worthless as your opinions.
Boy, you sure know how to go on the attack and misrepresent things!
I’m not about to reconfigure my computer so I can get their cookies to read one article. Especially when the story is available elsewhere free.
And where do you get off with your ASS-umptions?
You ASS ume I don’t want to read the article.
You ASS ume I’m pretending I can’t read it.
You ASS ume I don’t know who Moon is.
Next time get the HOLE story before you start jumping on people.
:wally
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### Author:  [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/36 "2004-07-17T07:51:33Z")
So Republicans, who despise Democrats for supporting policies which prevent them getting richer than they are, don’t like Kerry because he is… richer than they are.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/37 "2004-07-17T07:52:43Z")
My bad; **Minty** linked to the Salon article first.
> [@Snakespirit](#):
>
> Looks like Moon, (the owner of the Washington Post) duped some democratic and republican congressmen and senators to participate in a “crowning” of him on federal property.
The point isn’t just that he was crowned, it’s one tiny piece of evidence to demonstrate that the man is a nutbar. So his newspaper is not a great cite!
> [@](#):
>
> Can we go back to the OP now?
We wouldn’t be talking about the guy if you hadn’t tried to use the Washington Times during a serious discussion. :rolleyes:
> [@](#):
>
> Shit, even the Washington Post had a derisive article about the event!
Your reading is, again, less than thorough. Moon owns the Washington TIMES, the paper _you_ used. The Washington POST is considered a respectable news source by most. If you’d cited the POST, I don’t think there would have been a hijack.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/38 "2004-07-17T07:54:34Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#):
>
> No, your link was as worthless as your opinions.
Worked for me.
> [@](#):
>
> Boy, you sure know how to go on the attack and misrepresent things!
What did I misrepresent?
> [@](#):
>
> I’m not about to reconfigure my computer so I can get their cookies to read one article. Especially when the story is available elsewhere free.
Great. After all that bellyaching, you realized you could read it for free. Congrats. Do you understand why it was brought up yet?
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### Author:  [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/39 "2004-07-17T07:56:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Obviously, in economic terms the Kerrys are indeed well out of the “mainstream”, but so are the Bushes and Cheneys. In general, Republican leaders who try to paint Democratic leaders as some sort of “rich elite” are living in glass houses.
Pretty much anyone able to run for office as president these days will have to be somewhere up in that “rich elite” bracket. In fact I’ve been thinking lately that it’s really getting to the point where our vote only determines who we’re going to get screwed by and how.
“So, who are _you_ voting against in this election?” Since frankly, there’s not much good reason to vote _for_ either one of the two major candidates…
Hmmmm. Maybe we can get AH-Nold to run??? ☹
Is anybody “in the mainstream?”
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2004, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/40 "2004-07-17T07:59:28Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#):
>
> “So, who are _you_ voting against in this election?” Since frankly, there’s not much good reason to vote _for_ either one of the two major candidates…
Says you.
> [@](#):
>
> Hmmmm. Maybe we can get AH-Nold to run??? ☹
Yeah, he’s an Average Joe if ever I saw one. There’s the minor matter of the Constitution not allowing him to run, though.
> [@](#):
>
> Is anybody “in the mainstream?”
In terms of wealth? I doubt it. But being rich or poor doesn’t make you automatically more qualified for office.
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