# Is Kerry "out of the mainstream"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 17, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517 "2004-07-17T00:25:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/81 "2004-07-21T05:07:21Z")
[Arrowsmith]…_Bambi’s got a guuunnn…_ [/Creepy undead old fart singing rock]
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### Author:  [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/82 "2004-07-21T05:17:32Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#):
>
> As for John kerry’s voting record, that’s a matter of public record. Don’t tell me youi’re pro-kerry and don’t know his voting record!
This is not a cite. You cited somewhat vague information about him opposing certain ammo: we’d like to know exactly what you are talking about.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/83 "2004-07-21T05:22:49Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#):
>
> Do we have another ASSumption without basis here?
**Snakespirit** , if you want to stick around you’re probably gonna have to quit making that joke.
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### Author:  [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/84 "2004-07-21T05:29:46Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> Dude, I apologize, chill out.
No sweat. I just prefer truth to assumptions.
S
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### Author:  [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/85 "2004-07-21T05:33:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> **Snakespirit** , if you want to stick around you’re probably gonna have to quit making that joke.
So what, Marley. You gonna get me banned?
Remember the old saw (that Cecil would support, BTW):
When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.
Get your facts straight before you open your mouth.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/86 "2004-07-21T05:37:07Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#):
>
> So what, Marley. You gonna get me banned?
Pal, I’m attempting to communicate something very simple: there’s a rule against flaming people in GD. You broke it once with me a couple of days ago and got warned, and now you’re doing it again.
> [@](#):
>
> When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.
>
> Get your facts straight before you open your mouth.
I’ve been here the whole time. I’m not trying to junior mod and I’m not threatening you, I’m just saying maybe you should think twice before calling people asses.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/87 "2004-07-21T05:47:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> [Arrowsmith]…_Bambi’s got a guuunnn…_ [/Creepy undead old fart singing rock]
What did Thumper dooooo?
What did he put you throoooooo?
To those who are interested, here are a couple of pages which show Kerry’s voting record on guns:
[From a pro-gun site](http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/rkba/kerry_votes.htm)
[From an anti-gun site.](http://www.csgv.org/issues/elections/kerry_voting.cfm)
It’s hard to find an objective site but these to seem to agree on what the votes were.
Kerry seems to have voted for the Brady Bill, the assault weapons ban, child safety locks, closing gun show loopholes, and banning unlicensed gun sales on the internet.
His votes with regard to ammo consist of voting for bans on cop-killer bullets and large capacity magazines.
There seems to be nothing whatever in his voting record about banning ammo for deer hunting or anything attempt at all to vote “against” the 2nd amendment.
All his votes are right in line with the mainstream, btw.
What say you **Snake**? is it possible that some NRA types distorted the significance of his vote on ammo feeders, or do they use armor piercing bullets for deer these days?
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### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/88 "2004-07-21T06:04:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> Kerry seems to have voted for the Brady Bill, the assault weapons ban, child safety locks, closing gun show loopholes, and banning unlicensed gun sales on the internet.
And those votes damn him in the eyes of the pro-gun crowd, whatever his flip-flop claims today may be.
> [@](#):
>
> His votes with regard to ammo consist of voting for bans on cop-killer bullets and large capacity magazines.
‘Cop killer’ bullets is an assine phrase created by anti-gun types. A scare tactic with no basis in reality. It does show that he cared more for appeasing the gun grabbers than in enacting effective legislation. And banning standard capacity magazines is an act of supreme stupidity; the basest sort of feel-good legislation.
> [@](#):
>
> There seems to be nothing whatever in his voting record about banning ammo for deer hunting or\*\* anything attempt at all to vote “against” the 2nd amendment.\*\*
Bolding mine. You mean except for his voting record, right? He will lose votes for his anti-2A stance; He will gain no votes from his anti-2A stance.
Keep on underestimating just how important an issue gun-control is to a huge number of Americans. Some day, the DNC may realize that they are shooting themselves in the foot (har!) with their mindless support of anti-2A legislation.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/89 "2004-07-21T06:07:56Z")
Yeah, **Dio**! You just wait till a deer wearing a Kevlar vest comes after _you_, you’ll be singing a different tune then, boy!
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/90 "2004-07-21T06:12:23Z")
> [@Brutus](#):
>
> Bolding mine. You mean except for his voting record, right? He will lose votes for his anti-2A stance; He will gain no votes from his anti-2A stance.
So… either you’re with the second amendment (and opposed to all gun control) or you’re against it? That sounds vaguely familiar…
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### Author:  [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/91 "2004-07-21T06:15:00Z")
There was a thread on the “deer ammo” claim a little while back. I think in GQ. I’m too lazy to look it up, but I believe it turned out that the wording of the armor piercing ammo ban was vague and could possibly be read to include some rounds that might be used for hunting.
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### Author:  [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/92 "2004-07-21T06:16:19Z")
> [@Brutus](#):
>
> ‘Cop killer’ bullets is an assine phrase created by anti-gun types. A scare tactic with no basis in reality. It does show that he cared more for appeasing the gun grabbers than in enacting effective legislation. And banning standard capacity magazines is an act of supreme stupidity; the basest sort of feel-good legislation.
[“Asinine”](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=67&q=asinine). Would you accept “armour piercing” bullets? What is the legitimate use of such bullets outside of warfare?
And I note that the issue before was “large capacity magazines” - where does it say that Kerry banned “standard capacity magazines”? You’ve changed the terminology - for what reason? I know little about guns, so I’m curious…
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### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/93 "2004-07-21T06:17:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> So… either you’re with the second amendment (and opposed to all gun control) or you’re against it?
Or you do nothing regarding the 2A. But since Kerrys voting record is about as antigun as a voting record can get, it’s gonna hurt him.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/94 "2004-07-21T06:18:27Z")
> [@Brutus](#):
>
> And those votes damn him in the eyes of the pro-gun crowd, whatever his flip-flop claims today may be.
Each one of those votes was solidly with the msinstream of american voters. The gun nuts on the fringe aren’t going to vote for him anyway.
And are you actually rolling with that tiresome “flip-flopper” talking point? Have you ever tried thinking for yourself?
> [@](#):
>
> ‘Cop killer’ bullets is an assine phrase created by anti-gun types. A scare tactic with no basis in reality. It does show that he cared more for appeasing the gun grabbers than in enacting effective legislation. And banning standard capacity magazines is an act of supreme stupidity; the basest sort of feel-good legislation.
**Cop-killer** bullets have no other purpose than to penetrate armor and kill human beings. The human beings most likely to be wearing such armor are police officers. There is no legitimate hunting or self-defense purpose for those bullets. Trying to argue that they aren’t designed to kill cops is like trying to argue that bongs are for tobacco.
And anyway, the topic of the thread is not whether Kerry is right or wrong but whether he’s out of the mainstream. The mainstream opposes cop-killer bullets.
> [@](#):
>
> Bolding mine. You mean except for his voting record, right? He will lose votes for his anti-2A stance; He will gain no votes from his anti-2A stance.
Nothing in his voting record infringes on the 2nd Amendment. The right of militias to keep and bear arms is still on fairly solid ground.
> [@](#):
>
> Keep on underestimating just how important an issue gun-control is to a huge number of Americans. Some day, the DNC may realize that they are shooting themselves in the foot (har!) with their mindless support of anti-2A legislation.
A few extremist idiots worried that the government is going to take away their substitute penises is hardly a populist tsunami.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/95 "2004-07-21T06:29:51Z")
> [@Brutus](#):
>
> Or you do nothing regarding the 2A.
Would this mean abstaining from votes, or just voting against every gun-control measure like I said? If Kerry had sponsored court challenges against the amendment, THAT might qualify as anti-gun/anti-second amendment.
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### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/96 "2004-07-21T06:39:28Z")
> [@lambchops](#):
>
> [“Asinine”](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=67&q=asinine).
[Wow!](http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=Childish&x=20&y=5)
> [@](#):
>
> Would you accept “armour piercing” bullets? What is the legitimate use of such bullets outside of warfare?
Shooting steel plates out in the boonies? To oogle at?
How many cops were laid low by ‘cop killer’ bullets before the so-called ban? Zip. The whole matter started when some simpleton thought that ‘teflon coated bullets’ would slide right through a protective vest. Not a shred of truth to that, but that didn’t stop the legislation from being passed.
> [@](#):
>
> And I note that the issue before was “large capacity magazines” - where does it say that Kerry banned “standard capacity magazines”? You’ve changed the terminology - for what reason? I know little about guns, so I’m curious…
Take my Glock 17 for instance. The ‘standard capacity’ magazine for it, the one with which it was designed, will hold 17 rounds. Only after a gun control measure was passed did 10 round magazines become law of the land for mere citizens. So the ‘standard’ capacity is 17 rounds, while the post-stupid legislation capacity is 10 round. Stupid feel-good legislation.
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> Each one of those votes was solidly with the msinstream of american voters. The gun nuts on the fringe aren’t going to vote for him anyway.
A suprisingly large number of ‘gun nuts’ _were_ solid democrats, until the gun control measures of the Clinton years.
> [@](#):
>
> **Cop-killer** bullets have no other purpose than to penetrate armor and kill human beings. The human beings most likely to be wearing such armor are police officers. There is no legitimate hunting or self-defense purpose for those bullets. Trying to argue that they aren’t designed to kill cops is like trying to argue that bongs are for tobacco.
You babbled on about ‘deer hunting’ earlier; You do realize that virtually every ‘deer hunting’ round will rather easily penetrate a IIA vest that cops wear, right? Totally senseless legislation. Nothing but a soundbite to appease the easily scared.
> [@](#):
>
> And anyway, the topic of the thread is not whether Kerry is right or wrong but whether he’s out of the mainstream. The mainstream opposes cop-killer bullets.
Gosh, then why isn’t he trumpeting the fact? Because it will lose him votes, that’s why. He voted anti-gun to appease his ultraliberal constituency back at home; But on the national stage, his votes will bite him in the ass. Not that I am shedding tears over that, mind you.
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### Author:  [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/97 "2004-07-21T06:51:30Z")
> [@Brutus](#):
>
> You babbled on about ‘deer hunting’ earlier; You do realize that virtually every ‘deer hunting’ round will rather easily penetrate a IIA vest that cops wear, right? Totally senseless legislation. Nothing but a soundbite to appease the easily scared.
This doesn’t make much sense. Certainly there are lots of .270 and .30-06 rounds that’ll blow through vests very easily. But why the heck would anyone use them for deer hunting? And ideal deer round is one that would also be approximately ideal for killing unarmored humans, being that they’re about the same size and density and such. Anything that’ll go through a vest will blow through a deer without expanding. Not your best choice.
Maybe moose or bear rounds.
I tend to agree that AP ammunition bans and magazine restrictions and the like are stupid, useless laws, though. But support for them is pretty mainstream amongst people who don’t know much about firearms, which is a whole lot of people.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/98 "2004-07-21T06:52:26Z")
Funny that Bill Clinton took all those same stances and solidly kicked the Pubbies in the ass for eight years.
Kerry’s voting record really has been rather safe politically, not to mention measured and sane. Anyone who’s going to get all worked up about any of them is already a Bush zombie anyway.
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### Author:  [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/99 "2004-07-21T06:57:28Z")
> [@Brutus](#):
>
> Shooting steel plates out in the boonies? To oogle at?
>
> How many cops were laid low by ‘cop killer’ bullets before the so-called ban? Zip. The whole matter started when some simpleton thought that ‘teflon coated bullets’ would slide right through a protective vest. Not a shred of truth to that, but that didn’t stop the legislation from being passed.
That’s “ogle”, and you didn’t answer my question. What is the legitimate use of a bullet capable of piercing armour in day-to-day life? Surely an average pistol bullet is suitable for target shooting or personal protection? Or have I misunderstood your point - are you saying that these bullets do not pierce armour?
> [@](#):
>
> Take my Glock 17 for instance. The ‘standard capacity’ magazine for it, the one with which it was designed, will hold 17 rounds. Only after a gun control measure was passed did 10 round magazines become law of the land for mere citizens. So the ‘standard’ capacity is 17 rounds, while the post-stupid legislation capacity is 10 round. Stupid feel-good legislation.
Fair enough, see your point. Can’t see how reducing the number of bullets from 17 to 10 would do anything other than slow down the Columbine killers by a few seconds.
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### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/100 "2004-07-21T06:59:11Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#):
>
> This doesn’t make much sense. Certainly there are lots of .270 and .30-06 rounds that’ll blow through vests very easily. But why the heck would anyone use them for deer hunting? And ideal deer round is one that would also be approximately ideal for killing unarmored humans, being that they’re about the same size and density and such. Anything that’ll go through a vest will blow through a deer without expanding. Not your best choice.
>
> Maybe moose or bear rounds.
>
> I tend to agree that AP ammunition bans and magazine restrictions and the like are stupid, useless laws, though. But support for them is pretty mainstream amongst people who don’t know much about firearms, which is a whole lot of people.
(I’ll end my participation in this hijack after addressing this)
Cops (generally) wear a IIA vest. That’ll stop mid-power handgun rounds, and not much else. Even a .30-30 JSP would have little trouble going through a IIA, and certainly your run of the mill .30-30 160-ish grain round is a very typical deer-hunting round.
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