# Is Kerry "out of the mainstream"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 17, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517 "2004-07-17T00:25:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 12
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/101 "2004-07-21T07:03:09Z")
> [@Brutus](#):
>
> (I’ll end my participation in this hijack after addressing this)
>
> Cops (generally) wear a IIA vest. That’ll stop mid-power handgun rounds, and not much else. Even a .30-30 JSP would have little trouble going through a IIA, and certainly your run of the mill .30-30 160-ish grain round is a very typical deer-hunting round.
Well then we need to ban those too. 😛
---
### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/102 "2004-07-21T18:26:48Z")
> [@Apos](#):
>
> To be fair, I don’t see that that cite addresses the obvious counter-argument: that Republicans may have had superior Get out the Vote programs, which are perfectly legal but increase turnout rather than percentage (which is what pre-election polls generally measure).
Once is chance, twice is happenstance, a dozen upsets – all in favor of the same political party, in races where electronic voting machines were used – is cause for suspicion…
(Yeah, I know, tin-foil-hat territory. All I know is I wouldn’t trust any electronic voting machine in the 2004 race further than I can throw Karl Rove…)
---
### Author:  [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/103 "2004-07-21T19:46:02Z")
Well, yes, but the cause could still be superior GoTV programs. Of course, as I might have noted Republicans also habitually run illegal Keep in the Vote programs as well (luckily for them, their base is far less susceptible to these sorts of tactics, though I guess you could pass notes around the country club telling people to make sure they bring in a copy of their tax returns to vote), but these rarely involve the need to rig the machines. Of course, as long as we have partisan BoEs, no election is really safe.
---
### Author:  [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/104 "2004-07-21T23:27:32Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> All his votes are right in line with the mainstream, btw.
Well, that’s a matter of opinion. I wouldn’t call those “mainstream” positions.
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> What say you **Snake**? is it possible that some NRA types distorted the significance of his vote on ammo feeders, or do they use armor piercing bullets for deer these days?
Well, I’ll admit it if I’m wrong. I’ll have to do some research, though. It’s likely that some of the ammunition that is being labeled as “armor-piercing” is just standard deer hunting ammo, and my news source focused on that. Kinda like the misapplication of the term “assault weapon” to semi-automatic rifles with cosmetic changes.
I’ll get back to you on this.
---
### Author:  [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/105 "2004-07-21T23:34:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> Nothing in his voting record infringes on the 2nd Amendment. The right of militias to keep and bear arms is still on fairly solid ground.
ROTFL!
Please READ the amendment!
“The right of _the people_ to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
(emphasis mine)
Just because judges in one district come out in force saying that “the people” = “only the militia” = the national Guard doesn’t make it true.
---
### Author:  [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)
#### Post date: [July 21, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/106 "2004-07-21T23:54:16Z")
> [@Snakespirit](#):
>
> “The right of _the people_ to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
Well, actually it’s “A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
But the interpretation of this is another discussion, and one we’ve all had before.
---
### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/107 "2004-07-22T03:02:07Z")
> [@lambchops](#):
>
> Well, actually it’s “A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
>
> But the interpretation of this is another discussion, and one we’ve all had before.
True. Although if you ask me, the difference in wording is enormous.
---
### Author:  [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/108 "2004-07-25T00:19:54Z")
Kerry believes in the first part of the amendment, “A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the secutiry of a free State”, as well as the second part.
“WELL-REGULATED”. The phrase is in the Constitution, in the second amendment no less. All branches of the government, Congress, Executive and Judicial, are commanded in the Constitution to well-regulate the militas, even as they allow the militias to exist as a necessity. Now, why do the pro-gun people tend to miss that part? We “well-regulate” the military; who not militias?
---
### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/109 "2004-07-25T13:33:14Z")
> [@Apos](#):
>
> They sure don’t seem in any rush to actually do anything. They make quite a lot of noise about it, but can you really claim that they have been all that interested in passing what legislation they can that will actually stop abortions?
Well, they proposed the legislation on PBAs, and brought it to a vote. It didn’t pass because Democrats voted against it. You seem to be claiming that Republicans are disinterested in outlawing PBAs because Democrats vote to keep them. Not sure of the logic.
> [@Apos](#):
>
> Why not allow the simple exception that would have allowed it to avoid a strikedown on the basis of RvW and Casey?
Because the exception under discussion would have made the law meaningless. As I mentioned.
> [@Apos](#):
>
> Perhaps you forgot this when you were claiming that Republicans are big heroes who get things done for the mainstream on abortion?
And here we take the final step into pure fantasy. You are making things up, and attributing them to me.
> [@Apos](#):
>
> If you weren’t discussing whether Kerry was or wasn’t out of the mainstream, you sure did a pretty darn good imitation of it.
And exactly where the hell did I deny that I was discussing whether or not Kerry was in the mainstream?
I find things go more smoothly if we stick to points people are actually making, instead of making up stuff. I can’t debate the voices in anyone else’s head.
Regards,
Shodan
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/110 "2004-07-25T14:50:35Z")
Part of our problem is defining “mainstream”. Presumably, this must be somewhere around the “center”. Which is very problemactical, and seems to vary on a state by state basis, with many surprises.
Republicans in such states as Oregon, Arizona, and Michigan have undergone a profound, dare I say revolutionary, disorientation in their political stance, having moved _en masse_ just to the right of Trotsky. Previously staid, dull, and wholly committed to Coolidge’s maxim “The business of America is business”, in a matter of a few short years have found themselves fervently devoted to the politics of Ralph Nader.
Whodathunkit? Now, of course, there _are_ a few scattered naysayers, claiming that this is nothing more than a cynical ploy by Republicans to undermine Kerry by underhanded means. Given the proven record of Republicans for honesty, simplicity, and idealism, we can dismiss this scurrilous notion out of hand. Republicans resorting to such thunderous hypocrisy? Why, the very idea! This is, after all, the party of Bush, the very paragon of candor and straightforwardness!
As well, we are given to understand that Mr. Kerry is a “flip-flopper”. (This may, of course, mean nothing more than a marked preference for rubber shower-clog shoes…) At one and the same time, he is on both sides of every issue, and invariably “liberal”. This is a profound shift in the accepted paradigm of thesis-antithesis in American politics. There is now, it seems, a “conservative” side to any given issue, a “liberal” side, and another “liberal” side as well! Kerry is invariably liberal, of course, but sometimes he is liberal, and other times, he is liberal.
(I keep telling you people, a voice murmuring politely in the wilderness: Cognitive Dissonance is the number one threat to our Republic! But no one will listen…)
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [July 27, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/111 "2004-07-27T23:29:25Z")
Why does everybody keep talking about gun policy as an example of Kerry being “out of the mainstream”? All Kerry’s campaign website says about gun policy is this ([http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/communities/](http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/communities/)):
> [@](#):
>
> **Protect Gun Rights And Stop Gun Violence**
> John Kerry is a gun owner and hunter, and both he and John Edwards support the Second Amendment right of law-abiding Americans to own guns. Like all of our rights, gun rights come with responsibilities, and John Kerry and John Edwards support mainstream measures to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and terrorists: enforcing the gun laws on the books, closing the gun show loophole, and standing with law enforcement officers to extend the assault weapons ban.
Seems pretty “mainstream” to me. In fact, “bland” would be a better word.
---
### Author:  [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517/112 "2004-07-28T01:08:12Z")
> [@DtC](#):
>
> for the Brady Bill, the assault weapons ban, child safety locks, closing gun show loopholes, and banning unlicensed gun sales on the internet.
> [@](#):
>
> And those votes damn him in the eyes of the pro-gun crowd, whatever his flip-flop claims today may be.
Well, as an owner of 4 guns, I guess I can consider myself pro-gun. I, and several fellow gunners I know, didn’t really have a problem with the above laws. The NRA has really been taken over in the past decade, and it is the NRA, not your average gun owner, that has gone out of the mainstream. I think Kerry is wise to show himself as a hunter and gunowner.
> [@rjung](#):
>
> Perhaps that just means Republicans are better at stealing elections?
They kind of gloss over it in the article, but things were very volitile after the death of Wellstone (D-MN)I’d take any satistics taken during that time with a grain of salt.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kerry-out-of-the-mainstream/255517.md?page=5)