# Is kneeling on the neck of someone being detained acceptable police procedure? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 29, 2020, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687 "2020-05-29T17:25:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/1 "2020-05-29T17:25:48Z")
I’m guessing it probably is since I haven’t heard anyone in the last two-three days make the point that it isn’t. My next question would be whether “I can’t breathe” or something to that effect is sufficient to change law enforcement actions? ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/2 "2020-05-29T17:53:08Z")
My assumption is that it is an effective method of subduing a struggling/violent person (certainly seems like control of the head was considered a good thing in both wrestling and life saving tows), assuming the officer is careful about neck injuries and actual suffocation. Once they calm down, pressure should be released. I would have no real issue with the officer making a decision to keep light pressure if they think the person could become violent again. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/3 "2020-05-29T18:01:36Z")
[The ‘knee-to-neck’ move used to restrain George Floyd isn’t encouraged by most police.](https://www.stltoday.com/news/national/the-knee-to-neck-move-used-to-restrain-george-floyd-isnt-encouraged-by-most-police/article_10b14ba4-03e3-5999-a28e-0dd785a6af4c.html) Apparently the Minneapolis police specifically _do_ allow this maneuver if suspects are “aggressive or resisting arrest.” However, as the article notes, Floyd was in handcuffs and had three officers holding him down. The argument against using the maneuver at all is the potential for injuries to the detainee. There’s a lot going on in a person’s neck, and it isn’t designed to take the full weight of a police officer sideways on it. Plus, as the article notes, there’s the potential for positional asphyxia: the detainee can breathe deeply enough to say “I can’t breathe”, but not deeply enough to adequately exchange the air in the lungs so as to sustain the body’s metabolism. If you can only breathe deeply enough to exchange the air in your trachea and left/right main bronchi, then the air in the rest of your lungs will gradually become O2-poor and CO2-rich, and you’ll fall unconscious. Which means people who say “if you can speak then you can breathe” don’t really understand what’s happening. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/4 "2020-05-29T18:05:58Z")
I see no problem if it’s used to restrain someone who is not in cuffs and if it’s temporary. Neither of those conditions apply to the case in question. Officer Chauvin used his knee to flog George Floyd, to teach him who was boss. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/5 "2020-05-29T18:13:07Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I see no problem if it’s used to restrain someone who is not in cuffs and if it’s temporary. Neither of those conditions apply to the case in question. Officer Chauvin used his knee to flog George Floyd, to teach him who was boss. I haven’t watched the video. By “flog” do you meant that it wasn’t steady pressure? ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/6 "2020-05-29T18:14:59Z")
The best cop I know is a huuuuuuge proponent of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu training for cops because it allows them to subdue a person without doing stupid shit like kneeling on their neck. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/7 "2020-05-29T18:14:59Z")
Back in my day they would just [Hog-Tie](https://www.yesweekly.com/news/never-hog-tie-a-prisoner-instructions-on-device-warn-against-fatal-restraint/article_62feb4f9-77c2-574f-b56e-cc5b002ee414.html) you and let you yell and scream until you got too tired to fight it. I had it done to me once, not fun and hurt like hell. Glad to see they stopped doing that (or at least pretend not to anymore). ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/8 "2020-05-29T18:25:46Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > I haven’t watched the video. By “flog” do you meant that it wasn’t steady pressure? The video shows steady pressure. I believe **Asahi** may have meant “flog” in the general sense of “punish.” ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/9 "2020-05-29T18:30:44Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > The best cop I know is a huuuuuuge proponent of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu training for cops because it allows them to subdue a person without doing stupid shit like kneeling on their neck. The problem with that is that the moves that work in a dojo while wearing a judo gi often don’t work quite as well when wearing a duty belt with gun, magazines, cuffs, radio, flashlight, OC spray, baton, Taser weighing you down and catching on every protrusion or digging into your kidneys. In general, a police officer doesn’t want to “go to ground” with a subject because it puts them in a vulnerable position. To answer the question of the o.p., that maneuver is specifically prohibited by the California Police Officer Standards of Training (POST) which is the model for many other law enforcement agencies’ training and operating standards. There is really no way to apply force directly to the neck in that fashion without risk of severe injury or death notwithstanding that is a very awkward position that is difficult to get into without first restraining the subject. So not only is it not permitted by many agencies, it also isn’t really a good maneuver unless your goal is specifically to injure or agonize a subject. Nor is punching or kicking a subject in the head repeatedly (as seen by NYPD detectives selectively enforcing “social distancing” rules), repeatedly Tasering a subject that is already in cuffs and is passively resisting, spraying a subject in the face with OC because they are being verbally combative, and any of the variety of other offenses that have been seen of late. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/10 "2020-05-29T18:40:45Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The video shows steady pressure. I believe **Asahi** may have meant “flog” in the general sense of “punish.” Yeah, sorry - I was being figurative. Chauvin used his authority to arrest him - that may or may not have been with just cause, which is for the DA and courts to decide. But to sit on his neck for 10 minutes is conduct in which death or serious injury is likely. He was already on the ground and there is scant evidence that he wasn’t cooperating. Even if he wasn’t, being in cuffs limits his options, particularly when there are multiple officers present. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/11 "2020-05-29T18:44:51Z")
Chime in when I get it wrong. This man went to a store to buy something. After leaving, someone working in the store told the boss the suspect had given a counterfeit $20. Boss called police. Police arrived and found man was still outside the store. It can be really hard getting the backstory straight because they hammer the latest developments but from what I read, the suspect didn’t especially resist. High on drugs or brandishing a weapon? Not that I heard of. Policeman has a knee in his neck, huh? Did I miss something? I saw the arrest of CNN personnel—they clearly identified themselves as media, volunteered to move to an area that was more acceptable to authorities, politely and calmly, and they got arrested anyway. The police zip tied them and took them. > **[CNN Reporter Omar Jimenez Released After He Was Arrested Live on Air amid...](https://people.com/crime/cnn-reporter-omar-jimenez-and-his-producer-arrested-live-on-air-during-protests/)** > > Early Friday morning, CNN correspondent Omar Jimenez, his producer and cameraman were arrested by state police while reporting on the Minneapolis protests That sounds like martial law, though this article says no. “In other words, this isn’t the Minnesota governor sending in America’s military to impose martial law on the Twin Cities. This is the governor sending in local people to assist the local government and police and to help calm the situation as best they can.” > **[Here’s what the National Guard can and can’t do during the George Floyd uprising](https://www.vox.com/2020/5/29/21274462/george-floyd-protests-minnesota-national-guard)** > > Minnesota’s governor activated the state’s National Guard to "help provide security and restore safety." Later, when they were released, this story: > [@](#): > > CNN’s Josh Campbell, who also was in the area but not standing with the on-air crew, said he, too, was approached by police, but was allowed to remain. > > “I identified myself … they said, ‘OK, you’re permitted to be in the area,’” recounted Campbell, who is white. “I was treated much differently than (Jimenez) was.” > Jimenez is black and Latino. Kirkos is white, and Mendez is Hispanic. [https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/us/minneapolis-cnn-crew-arrested/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/us/minneapolis-cnn-crew-arrested/index.html) This is some really bad shit. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/12 "2020-05-29T18:53:39Z")
I used to do a ton of martial arts aimed at effective streetfighting. The ONLY reason I would kneel on someone’s neck would be if I either WANTED to seriously injure/kill them, or if i simply didn’t care if I injured/killed them. Not the attitude I would hope for of any LEO. There certainly is ZERO justification for doing so to an unarmed, handcuffed, prone individual, especially w/ armed backup. Some reason a knee to the back was insufficient? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/13 "2020-05-29T19:00:14Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > The best cop I know is a huuuuuuge proponent of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu training for cops because it allows them to subdue a person without doing stupid shit like kneeling on their neck. Like Stranger says, cops generally want to stay off the ground. However, for anyone who watches NHB, when you “get the mount”, or someone “gives up their back”, that means you are astride the other person, on either their chest or back, with one knee on either side of them, with your hips above their hips. In that position you OWN anyone other than a VERY skilled/fit/crazed opponent. Sitting on someone’s chest or back, with your full weight, is EXTREMELY incapacitating. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/14 "2020-05-29T19:07:39Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Police arrived and found man was still outside the store. > > It can be really hard getting the backstory straight because they hammer the latest developments but from what I read, the suspect didn’t especially resist. High on drugs or brandishing a weapon? Not that I heard of. According to accounts I have read, Floyd was sitting on a car when the police arrived, and “appeared to be intoxicated.” They alleged he physically resisted arrest. Floyd was a large individual, 6’7", and would have been difficult to arrest if he resisted. However, at the point the video began he had already been subdued and cuffed, and would not have been a threat no matter what his size or mental state. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/15 "2020-05-29T19:19:39Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > I saw the arrest of CNN personnel—they clearly identified themselves as media, volunteered to move to an area that was more acceptable to authorities, politely and calmly, and they got arrested anyway. The police zip tied them and took them. > > [CNN Reporter Omar Jimenez Arrested amid George Floyd Protests](https://people.com/crime/cnn-reporter-omar-jimenez-and-his-producer-arrested-live-on-air-during-protests/) > > That sounds like martial law, though this article says no. > > “In other words, this isn’t the Minnesota governor sending in America’s military to impose martial law on the Twin Cities. This is the governor sending in local people to assist the local government and police and to help calm the situation as best they can.” > > [Here’s what the National Guard can do during the George Floyd protests - Vox](https://www.vox.com/2020/5/29/21274462/george-floyd-protests-minnesota-national-guard) > > Later, when they were released, this story: > > [https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/us/minneapolis-cnn-crew-arrested/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/us/minneapolis-cnn-crew-arrested/index.html) > > This is some really bad shit. **Moderator Note** Let’s not hijack this into discussion of other cases or the situation in Minnesota in general. Stick strictly to the factual question in the OP. There are other forums and other threads available to discuss this, including expressing outrage. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/16 "2020-05-29T19:29:09Z")
As an update, [the officer in question has been arrested and charged with third-degree murder and manslaughter.](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/us/george-floyd-minneapolis-protests.html) An investigation is being conducted regarding the other three officers present. I mention this with regard to whether the conduct in question was “acceptable.” Other commentary should be directed to the appropriate forum. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/17 "2020-05-29T19:39:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > According to accounts I have read, Floyd was sitting on a car when the police arrived, and “appeared to be intoxicated.” They alleged he physically resisted arrest. Floyd was a large individual, 6’7", and would have been difficult to arrest if he resisted. However, at the point the video began he had already been subdued and cuffed, and would not have been a threat no matter what his size or mental state. Thanks for the info. It’ll be interested to see if a toxicology report is done and if so, whether that supports or refutes. > [@Colibri](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > Let’s not hijack this into discussion of other cases or the situation in Minnesota in general. Stick strictly to the factual question in the OP. There are other forums and other threads available to discuss this, including expressing outrage. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/18 "2020-05-29T19:50:29Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Thanks for the info. It’ll be interested to see if a toxicology report is done and if so, whether that supports or refutes. Even if he was up to his eyeballs in PCP and had resisted arrest, I don’t think that would be relevant to the legality of how he was treated after he was cuffed and subdued. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/19 "2020-05-29T19:55:19Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The problem with that is that the moves that work in a dojo while wearing a judo gi often don’t work quite as well when wearing a duty belt with gun, magazines, cuffs, radio, flashlight, OC spray, baton, Taser weighing you down and catching on every protrusion or digging into your kidneys. In general, a police officer doesn’t want to “go to ground” with a subject because it puts them in a vulnerable position. He’s rather accomplished in both disciplines, I’ll take his word for it. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > Like Stranger says, cops generally want to stay off the ground. And yet, they end up there all the time. Given the choice of putting cops on the street that train BJJ regularly, and cops that go half-ass for 8 hours once a year to ‘recertify’, I’ll take the ones that train. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/20 "2020-05-29T20:24:17Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Given the choice of putting cops on the street that train BJJ regularly, and cops that go half-ass for 8 hours once a year to ‘recertify’, I’ll take the ones that train. Having experience in groundfighting is useful for a police officer, of course, but it is not the way they would choose to subdue a subject. BJJ and cage fighting enthusiasts tend to emphasize how often such fights ‘go to ground’ but in a cage fight you are one-on-one, on a padded surface, and unencumbered by the 20+ pounds of gear on a duty belt that your subject may be trying to grab and use on you. In the real world, subjects are often accompanied by other people, the pavement is hard and often covered by sharp debris like broken glass, and trying to get Marceloplata on a subject while said individual is grabbing your belt and trying to pull out your pepper spray to spice up your life is not a great life move. Stranger [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687.md?page=2)