# Is kneeling on the neck of someone being detained acceptable police procedure? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 29, 2020, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687 "2020-05-29T17:25:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/41 "2020-05-31T18:29:04Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The media have been citing a “preliminary autopsy report,” and they’ve been putting quotes around that line: > > “…no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” > > Which would suggest this is a word-for-word accurate reproduction of what is in that preliminary autopsy report. > > Sloppier reports are equating the common understanding of “asphyxiation”, i.e. an inability to exchange air in the lungs, with the “traumatic asphyxiation” terminology mentioned in that report, which is not at all the same thing. Right, you don’t have to cause damage to the trachea to close it off enough to restrict breathing. Just because his throat wasn’t crushed doesn’t in any way mean that the pressure applied to it wasn’t the cause of his asphyxiation. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2020, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/42 "2020-05-31T20:55:26Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Police are saying intoxication and resisting arrest (per your earlier post) were involved. And this may also be part of the answer to the OP’s question. If the perp were actively fighting back while being arrested placing the cops in danger while they handcuff him, that is very different than when cops grab someone without warning, their “fight-or-flight” kicks in momentarily but then they submit while the cops keep shouting, “Stop resisting!!!” in his face. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/43 "2020-06-01T12:52:30Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > “Police officers working together” is well and good until you’re on a county highway in the middle of the night and there’s not another cop on duty within 30 miles. But whatever y’all think I guess. Without witnesses he would just have shot him in the back and taken the rest of the cash. #ACAB ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/44 "2020-06-01T13:14:41Z")
> [@LH75](#): > > It also seems to me to be a much higher level of force needed for the crime of _possibly passing a counterfeit twenty dollar bill_ WAS there an actual counterfeit bill or at least a suspicious one? It seems to me that the police must have checked that, but I haven’t seen anything about it in the news. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/45 "2020-06-01T13:29:27Z")
> [@Mikkel](#): > > WAS there an actual counterfeit bill or at least a suspicious one? It seems to me that the police must have checked that, but I haven’t seen anything about it in the news. Store owner says so. [https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/05/28/george-floyd-store-owner-staff-call-police-ctn-sot-vpx.cnn](https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/05/28/george-floyd-store-owner-staff-call-police-ctn-sot-vpx.cnn) ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/46 "2020-06-01T13:48:56Z")
David Roddy, the police chief of Chattanooga, TN, stated “There is no need to see more video. There no need to wait to see how “it plays out”. There is no need to put a knee on someone’s neck for NINE minutes. There IS a need to DO something. If you wear a badge and you don’t have an issue with this…turn it in.” I think it’s pretty clear that this is grossly outside of any reasonable procedure for subduing a suspect, especially one who has already been cuffed. [https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/500022-tennessee-police-chief-tells-officers-who-dont-have-an-issue-with-george](https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/500022-tennessee-police-chief-tells-officers-who-dont-have-an-issue-with-george) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/47 "2020-06-01T14:26:26Z")
**[Moderating]** > [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Without witnesses he would just have shot him in the back and taken the rest of the cash. > #ACAB Did you forget what forum you’re in? Here’s a reminder, in the form of a Warning. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/48 "2020-06-01T16:25:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So your contention is that he just happened to die, and it had nothing to do with the way he was being handled by the officer. Just a complete coincidence? How you reached that conclusion is beyond me. The way he was handled and, perhaps more importantly, not handled most likely contributed to his death. While not common, it is not unheard of for people who struggle during an arrest, and after they are subdued, to suddenly have cardiac and breathing issues. There is almost always underlying medical and/or substance abuse present. Training is to monitor people who have fought during an arrest and to, especially, watch their face. If there appear to be any issues, place the person on their side or sit them up, if possible. Clearly, that didn’t happen here and those responsible should be held accountable. What I’m saying is that many people, including stories published in the media, have concluded that the knee on Floyd’s neck was the cause of death. The limited information available from the autopsy report doesn’t seem to back that up. Normally, an ME will list a cause and manner of death. In fact, in cases where the cause of death isn’t obvious (multiple gunshots, etc.) I think it is unusual to charge someone with murder before the manner of death has been ruled a homicide. The criminal complaint only says what is “likely”, which is pretty much meaningless from a legal standpoint. Suppose for a moment that the cause of death is ultimately determined to be cardiac arrest brought on by the struggle get him into the car combined with substance use alluded to in the complaint and the way he was ultimately restrained. Contrast that with “asphyxiation by the knee on the neck”. It may seem like hair-splitting but matters a great deal when it comes to convicting and sentencing someone. I hate to be the ME in this case. He or she already knows Michael Baden will be second guessing everything. Not to mention the political pressures. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/49 "2020-06-01T21:34:25Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > What I’m saying is that many people, including stories published in the media, have concluded that the knee on Floyd’s neck was the cause of death. The limited information available from the autopsy report doesn’t seem to back that up. Normally, an ME will list a cause and manner of death. In fact, in cases where the cause of death isn’t obvious (multiple gunshots, etc.) I think it is unusual to charge someone with murder before the manner of death has been ruled a homicide. [Breaking news](https://www.thedailybeast.com/george-floyd-died-of-asphyxiation-from-pressure-on-neck-independent-autopsy-finds). > [@](#): > > George Floyd, the 46-year-old unarmed black man filmed repeatedly saying he couldn’t breathe while a white Minneapolis police officer pinned his neck to the ground with his knee, died from asphyxia caused by pressure to his back and neck, according to an independent autopsy. > > The independent autopsy performed by celebrity pathologist Dr. Michael Baden and Dr. Alllecia Wilson found that Floyd died of “asphyxia due to neck and back compression that led to lack of blood flow to the brain,” according to a statement released by civil rights lawyer Ben Crump, who is representing the Floyd family. I have no idea whether this is the last word, but it refutes the earlier County Medical Examiner report. I’m assuming that since all aspects of the case are being turned over to independent experts this finding should be taken very seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/50 "2020-06-02T02:27:53Z")
And is that a specific result of the knee on the neck, or just something that happens from time to time? I’ve never had a knee on my neck, or seen it done, but lying face down with an officers foot on my back seems to be SOP. A difference was that I wasn’t saying “I can’t breath” at the time. Here is another similar death (4 minutes) in my home town: > **[Crown Casino security training 'adequate' after man's death: coroner](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-27/crown-casino-security-training-adequate-after-mans-death/6353592)** > > A group of Crown Casino security guards acted "outside their training" when they pinned down a man for four minutes before checking his vital signs, an inquest into his death finds. From memory, I think he was saying “I can’t breath”, and his death was from heart attack, not asphyxiation – perhaps the “can’t breath” sensation is a characteristic of heart failure? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/51 "2020-06-02T06:39:01Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > David Roddy, the police chief of Chattanooga, TN, stated “There is no need to see more video. There no need to wait to see how “it plays out”. There is no need to put a knee on someone’s neck for NINE minutes. There IS a need to DO something. If you wear a badge and you don’t have an issue with this…turn it in.” I think it’s pretty clear that this is grossly outside of any reasonable procedure for subduing a suspect, especially one who has already been cuffed. [https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/500022-tennessee-police-chief-tells-officers-who-dont-have-an-issue-with-george](https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/500022-tennessee-police-chief-tells-officers-who-dont-have-an-issue-with-george) This is true and the officer placing his knee on his neck deserves whatever they can convict him of simply because of how dangerous the tactic is. However, I don’t think he was the one doing the most damage. A knee that is 90 degrees to the line of the airway is not going to cut it off. It would need to be closer to 45 degrees and you can negate the effect by turning the neck away. Try it with your fist. You can also see Mr Floyd rotating his neck back and forth. And if it was cutting off the airway then you’d hear more of the vocal distress in his voice. It would sound more throttled. The voice would change with the pressure against the vocal cords. From what I understand they had Mr. Floyd cuffed and in the car or partially in the car and it devolved into what we see in the street. I think it’s likely that the next officer in line was kneeling on Mr. Floyd’s back while pulling up on his handcuffed arms making it difficult to breath. I think this might have been the more direct cause of death. For this reason I think the other 2 officers who were on top of him should also be charged with homicide and the 4th officer charged with some failure of safety of Mr Floyd. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/52 "2020-06-02T07:26:23Z")
Could this not be a form of dry drowning? If you are prevented from breathing in sudden and traumatic circumstances the throat can constrict. I am not very surprised the public disorder continues - this preliminary report from the autopsy will be interpreted as an attempt to start a cover up, many of the protesters have absolutely no trust in anything to do with white mans authority at all - the report in their view reinforces that and will just mean that the message of wrongdoing needs to be reinforced. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/53 "2020-06-02T14:20:18Z")
Well, at least the manner of death has been ruled a homicide by the county ME. That may have been the case when the charges were filed but it was not made public. Baden, hired by the family, also concluded the manner of death to be homicide but I don’t know that a private ME’s opinion carries any weight in that regard. I still find it interesting that two different MEs came to two different conclusions regarding the asphyxiation. I guess that shows that its not that simple of a determination. I’m also curious what Baden specifically found that led to his opinion. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/54 "2020-06-02T14:26:03Z")
In Exapno’s quote it says: The independent autopsy performed by celebrity pathologist Dr. Michael Baden and Dr. Alllecia Wilson found that Floyd died of “asphyxia due to neck and back compression that led to lack of blood flow to the brain,” according to a statement released by civil rights lawyer Ben Crump, who is representing the Floyd family. IANAD…cutting off air to the lungs = asphyxia; cutting off blood flow to the brain = stroke, right? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/55 "2020-06-02T16:23:11Z")
The simple GQ answer to this is that in Minneapolis according to section 5-311 of their rules and regulations neck restraints are authorized. It does say that it is only authorized to be used by those who have been specifically trained in its use. It’s not written there but I have heard that part of the training is that it can only be used on someone actively resisting. > **[Policy manual](https://www.minneapolismn.gov/government/departments/police/mpd-policy-procedure-manual/policy-manual/)** > > You can read the Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) policy and procedure manual. There is no one standard across the country. Although most use of force policies are similar there are significant variations from state to state. For instance my state was the last to authorize tasers and that was only a few years ago. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/56 "2020-06-02T16:36:42Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/57 "2020-06-02T17:59:54Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > The simple GQ answer to this is that in Minneapolis according to section 5-311 of their rules and regulations neck restraints are authorized. > > It does say that it is only authorized to be used by those who have been specifically trained in its use. It’s not written there but I have heard that part of the training is that it can only be used on someone actively resisting. > > [http://www.minneapolismn.gov/police/policy/mpdpolicy\_5-300\_5-300](http://www.minneapolismn.gov/police/policy/mpdpolicy_5-300_5-300) And if someone is struggling because they can’t breath…? It’s kinda like a rule that says you can tase someone until they stop shaking. It’s the perfect feedback loop of death. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/58 "2020-06-02T18:50:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And if someone is struggling because they can’t breath…? > > It’s kinda like a rule that says you can tase someone until they stop shaking. > > It’s the perfect feedback loop of death. I posted what their rules and regulations are. If you have a problem with it take it up with them. I’m sure there is a long line. That technique is not authorized where I’m from. There is a clear cut difference between authorized and unauthorized. If it’s authorized it doesn’t mean it’s authorized in all situations. If it’s authorized it can also be done incorrectly. As in any use of force issue it depends on what is reasonable at the time. What could be reasonable in minute 1 of an incident may be unreasonable in minute 2 due to a change in circumstances. Reasonableness and circumstances also come into play when an unauthorized technique is used. An officer is not allowed to hit someone over the head with a rock. But if he’s about to be killed and a rock is the only thing he can reach it will probably be seen as a reasonable use of force. Giving a noogie to a complaint and cuffed suspect would probably be seen as an excessive use of force. To bring it specifically to the case at hand, to all appearances this is not a reasonable use of force. Even if we stipulate that Chauvin was trained in the technique as per their guidelines (I have seen nothing that says it either way) it is clear he did not use it reasonably. Floyd appears to have resisted getting in the vehicle. He was a very large and apparently strong man (star football player). He was under the influence of drugs. Using some level of force was probably necessary at some point. But the use of force has to be continually evaluated. What can and should be used in one minute when a suspect is resisting can not continue to be used when they are cuffed and compliant. If they are complaining of a medical condition it is incumbent on the officer to make sure of their condition regardless of how many times you have seen others play possum. There were several minutes when he was complaint and conscious. The level of force should have lessened. There are lots of things that happened which justify a criminal complaint even if the technique is authorized under certain circumstances. The fact that it is an authorized technique along with other issues in the autopsy is what probably lower the charge to 3rd degree murder in my non-lawyer opinion. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/59 "2020-06-02T20:19:10Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > In Exapno’s quote it says: > > The independent autopsy performed by celebrity pathologist Dr. Michael Baden and Dr. Alllecia Wilson found that Floyd died of “asphyxia due to neck and back compression that led to lack of blood flow to the brain,” according to a statement released by civil rights lawyer Ben Crump, who is representing the Floyd family. > > IANAD…cutting off air to the lungs = asphyxia; cutting off blood flow to the brain = stroke, right? Yes, I don’t know about this "backing up blood flow through the heart’ etc. I thought asphyxiation was lack of oxygen. I’ve run across the term used when someone is strangled, suffocated (mouth or pillow over the mouth and nose, for example) or simple lack of oxygen, where they are in an area where the oxygen ha been consumed (although I guess carbon monoxide poisoning is not the same). I have also heard it used when someone is compressed (i.e. ditch cave in) so they cannot breathe, their chest is compressed. Unless the problem was blood flow to the brain, not being able to breath because the throat or chest cavity was too compressed seems like asphyxiation to me. I guess that’s why I’m not a coroner. The problem with the whole dueling autopsies thing is it brings on a question whether the County coroner is softening the news to make the county less liable if the problem was underlying heart condition (not proven) or drugs(also not independently proven) rather than 100% officer(s) sadisim. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687/60 "2020-06-02T20:33:05Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The problem with the whole dueling autopsies thing is it brings on a question whether the County coroner is softening the news to make the county less liable if the problem was underlying heart condition (not proven) or drugs(also not independently proven) rather than 100% officer(s) sadisim. The second autopsy was not conducted with all the physical evidence and was released before toxicology came out. Baden also suffers from credibility issues. He coincidentally always finds in favor of whoever hired him. O.J. Couldn’t have done it because Ron Goldman fought for over 20 minutes. Epstein was murdered and coincidentally his brother hired Baden so they can sue. Baden testified for Phil Spector and his wife just happened to be the defense attorney. The official autopsy does not appear to be covering anything up. It ruled it a homicide. Just because someone healthier may not have died does not excuse the actions taken. It’s still a homicide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kneeling-on-the-neck-of-someone-being-detained-acceptable-police-procedure/854687.md?page=4)