# Is Kwanzaa "over"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012 "2008-12-29T00:48:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/1 "2008-12-29T00:48:19Z")
That, at any rate, is what [this](http://www.reason.com/news/show/130739.html) article claims, in strangely spiteful tones. So, _is_ Kwanzaa “over,” and/or _should_ it be (as the article seems to argue)? On the second question, I would say no, at least so long as there are still people who get positive things out of it. Doesn’t matter to me if it’s a “made up” holiday, or if the guy who founded it was an alleged criminal asshole. Seems like a perfectly fine holiday to me, from what little I’ve read about it, and as such its demise seems more an occasion for regret (or, at worst, indifference) than celebration. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/2 "2008-12-29T01:24:47Z")
I’m with you, as I don’t really see what problem some people have with Kwanzaa. I do have to say I’m not particularly surprised that a **libertarian** organization doesn’t like a celebration of **communitarian** principles. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/3 "2008-12-29T01:46:31Z")
Well, it was more a matter that nobody ever really needed Kwanzaa for anything. All holidays start out being “made up”, but this one was just plain stupid. It wasn’t merely “made up”, it was created as a deliberately artificial thing to seperate people from each other (black Kwanzaa versus white Christmas). ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/4 "2008-12-29T02:10:31Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Well, it was more a matter that nobody ever really needed Kwanzaa for anything. All holidays start out being “made up”, but this one was just plain stupid. It wasn’t merely “made up”, it was created as a deliberately artificial thing to seperate people from each other (black Kwanzaa versus white Christmas). So those people who celebrate both Christmas and Kwanzaa are fucking up? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/5 "2008-12-29T02:52:41Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > I do have to say I’m not particularly surprised that a **libertarian** organization doesn’t like a celebration of **communitarian** principles. Ah, good point. I saw the article linked on the always interesting [Arts & Letters Daily](http://aldaily.com), and didn’t pay much attention to where it was coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/6 "2008-12-29T03:06:03Z")
Kwanzaa is on the ropes because at a thought level it’s fourth grade pap and at a commercial level there is no business model. Plus it’s tied to a founder who is really nutty, still alive and thus easier to mock as a criminal simpleton, and it has “me-too, me-too” written all over its holiday model. I sorta like it, though. I usually send a Kwanzaa ecard or two, even if I don’t actually buy one… ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/7 "2008-12-29T04:07:45Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > (black Kwanzaa versus white Christmas). I notice that it has the right number of syllables for the Bing Crosby thing. ---
**Author:** ![EpiGirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8c91f0/32.png) [@EpiGirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EpiGirl)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/8 "2008-12-29T04:22:38Z")
Eh, I don’t think Kwanzaa was ever as big as some have made it out to be. From what I have observed, few black people celebrate the holiday outside of a school or sometimes church setting, if at all. It’s perhaps less popular in the eyes of the media now more than ever, but I am unsure whether it was truly popular to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/9 "2008-12-29T04:28:54Z")
I’ve known slightly more people who have celebrated Kwanzaa than people who are Libertarians, so I thought it was always a really small holiday. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/10 "2008-12-29T04:54:33Z")
I have once in my entire life heard someone sincerely wish another Happy Kwanzaa. It appears to exist in the Media and occ for local governments to show they are “aware”. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/11 "2008-12-29T05:07:25Z")
How do I know that Kwanzaa is over? Because Burt Wolf just did a program about it. If you want to create a new holiday, why put it in the middle of the busiest holiday season? Who the hell has time and energy to do it AND Christmas? And Christmas WILL be done, since most African Americans are Christian. New Years, too, because people like FUN parties. There is no place in American holidays for thoughtful reflection or somber ceremony. You’ll miss the football game. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/12 "2008-12-29T12:27:18Z")
Over? Was it ever not over? I don’t know a single person who celebrated it for real. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/13 "2008-12-29T14:14:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have once in my entire life heard someone sincerely wish another Happy Kwanzaa. It appears to exist in the Media and occ for local governments to show they are “aware”. Is this just hype, then? \*" \*\*The Founder’s Welcome Dr. Maulana Karenga \*\* As an African American and Pan-African holiday celebrated by millions throughout the world African community, Kwanzaa brings a cultural message which speaks to the best of what it means to be African and human in the fullest sense… …Moreover, given the continued rapid growth of Kwanzaa and the parallel expanded discussion of it…"\* [http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/index.shtml](http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/index.shtml) (underlining mine) I feel scammed. Oh, wait…it’s that Karenga guy. I should have known. _Mea culpa._ ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/14 "2008-12-29T15:45:14Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > So those people who celebrate both Christmas and Kwanzaa are fucking up? Cite? When come back, bring pie. And reading comprehension. It was deliberately created to divide blacks from whites (and Karenga was a nasty character, that). The fact that some people “celebrated” Kwanzaa (How, I do not know. Maybe with the traditional Kwanzaa literature “What the Heck is Kwanzaa?”.) means Karenga failed, not that Kwanzaa makes any kind of sense. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/15 "2008-12-29T22:10:39Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > It was deliberately created to divide blacks from whites (and Karenga was a nasty character, that). Again, cite? You can keep questioning my reading comprehension all day long, but it won’t get you off the hook. **Hell, you might actually even be right**. I just want some evidence to back up your claim. Here are your exact words: > [@](#): > > It wasn’t merely “made up”, it was created as a deliberately artificial thing to seperate people from each other (black Kwanzaa versus white Christmas). So back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn1767](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shawn1767](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn1767)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/16 "2008-12-29T23:01:55Z")
I’m white and I teach at a predominantly black elementary school here in the New Orleans’ area. I’ve been to and participated in several Kwanzaa celebrations, including one this year at a local community center. It seems to be doing okay around here. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/17 "2008-12-29T23:03:23Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Again, cite? > > You can keep questioning my reading comprehension all day long, but it won’t get you off the hook. **Hell, you might actually even be right**. I just want some evidence to back up your claim. Here are your exact words:So back it up. [IKarenga said his goal was to “…give Blacks an alternative to the existing holiday and give Blacks an opportunity to celebrate themselves and history, rather than simply imitate the practice of the dominant society.”[3] \* > **[Kwanzaa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwanzaa)** > > Kwanzaa (/ˈkwɑːnzə/) is an annual celebration of African-American culture from December 26 to January 1, culminating in a communal feast called Karamu, usually on the sixth day. It was created by activist Maulana Karenga based on Karenga's research of African harvest festival traditions from various parts of West, East, and Southeast Africa. Kwanzaa was first celebrated in 1966. A 2009 estimate placed the number of Americans who celebrate Kwanzaa between 500,000 and 2,000,000. > American black s... _In 1971, Karenga, Louis Smith, and Luz Maria Tamayo were convicted of felony assault and false imprisonment for assaulting and torturing over a two day period two women from the US organization, Deborah Jones and Gail Davis.[3] An article in the Los Angeles Times described the testimony of one of the women: “Deborah Jones, who once was given the title of an African queen, said she and Gail Davis were whipped with an electrical cord and beaten with a karate baton after being ordered to remove their clothes. She testified that a hot soldering iron was placed in Miss Davis’ mouth and placed against Miss Davis’ face and that one of her own big toes was tightened in a vice. Karenga, head of US, also put detergent and running hoses in their mouths, she said”.[3]_ > **[Maulana Karenga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Karenga)** > > Maulana Ndabezitha Karenga (born Ronald McKinley Everett, July 14, 1941), previously known as Ron Karenga, is an American activist, author and professor of Africana studies, best known as the creator of the pan-African and African-American holiday of Kwanzaa. > Born in Parsonsburg, Maryland, to an African-American family, Karenga studied at Los Angeles City College and the University of California, Los Angeles. He was active in the Black Power movement of the 1960s, joining the Congress of Raci... ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/18 "2008-12-30T00:21:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [IKarenga said his goal was to “…give Blacks an alternative to the existing holiday and give Blacks an opportunity to celebrate themselves and history, rather than simply imitate the practice of the dominant society.”[3] \* > [Kwanzaa - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwanzaa) Do you have a cite for that in its full context? I’m a bit wary of trusting [this source](http://www.christocentric.com/Kwanzaa/), for hopefully obvious reasons. Again, while it’s not true today, I wouldn’t be shocked if it weren’t more of a black substitute for Christmas in its earliest incarnation, but I’d like some decent evidence if that’s the case. Today it’s far more of a cultural/political holiday than a religious one, and plenty of people happily partake in both Christmas and Kwanzaa. [Here](http://www.officialkwanzaawebsite.org/faq.shtml#10) is their official stance on the issue today. > [@](#): > > _In 1971, Karenga, Louis Smith, and Luz Maria Tamayo were convicted of felony assault and false imprisonment for assaulting and torturing over a two day period two women from the US organization, Deborah Jones and Gail Davis.[3] An article in the Los Angeles Times described the testimony of one of the women: “Deborah Jones, who once was given the title of an African queen, said she and Gail Davis were whipped with an electrical cord and beaten with a karate baton after being ordered to remove their clothes. She testified that a hot soldering iron was placed in Miss Davis’ mouth and placed against Miss Davis’ face and that one of her own big toes was tightened in a vice. Karenga, head of US, also put detergent and running hoses in their mouths, she said”.[3]_ > [Maulana Karenga - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Karenga) I’m fully aware of Maulana’s less than glamorous period in the late 60’s. I’m not sure what this has to do with the question, though. ---
**Author:** ![Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9adbd/32.png) [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fell_through_the_Ice)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/19 "2008-12-30T00:47:11Z")
> [@](#): > > "Deborah Jones, who once was given the title of an African queen Wait, what? Given the title by whom? When? Where? Why? What is with this obsession anyway among so many blacks with claiming they are, or are descended from, royalty? We have “Queen” Latifah, “Prince”, then Michael Jackson naming his son “Prince Michael”. Oh and also the “Fresh Prince of Bel-Air”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012/20 "2008-12-30T00:51:04Z")
Yeah, I too wish Will Smith would stop going on about the Bel Air monarchy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-kwanzaa-over/479012.md?page=2)