# Is lawyer licensing necessary? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2006, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lawyer-licensing-necessary/356694 "2006-05-14T01:39:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lawyer-licensing-necessary/356694/121 "2006-05-20T12:19:54Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6414331&postcount=34](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6414331&postcount=34) > Must be a different brickbacon. Read the rest of the thread buddy. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lawyer-licensing-necessary/356694/122 "2006-05-20T12:29:09Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > A free market is the solution? A free market as in eliminate the state funded law schools and government backed loans to law students so as to put a further barrier against poor people entering the profession? Nobody said eliminate law schools. Just make them optional. Either way, its hard to argue the effectiveness of law school if half the people aren’t going half the time. Also, most of these people will learn on the job as well. > [@Muffin](#): > > Skip the formal education, directly enter the profession, and learn on the job – but who is paying for the mistakes made while learning the hard way? The unsuspecting client, of course, particularly since there would be no compensation fund. Who pays for the mistakes lawyers make now? These “mistakes” aren’t being mitigated by the presence of the Bar because the bar is not doing it’s job, and those mistakes probably wouldn’t rise to the standard of legal malpractice. Like any job where training is needed, every company will have training requirements before giving a new person work they can’t handle. ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lawyer-licensing-necessary/356694/123 "2006-05-20T15:30:53Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > …an economic system in which individuals, rather than government, make the majority of decisions regarding economic activities and transactions. Hey, congratulations! You just described my law practice, and that of every non-government lawyer I’ve ever known. I’m glad we can finally agree that lawyers operate in a free market system, by your definition. Next hot topic: Is The Man really in charge of all the taxi drivers? Is it secret? Does paying twenty-five bucks at city hall make them tools of a plot designed to set a monopoly on fares?! ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lawyer-licensing-necessary/356694/124 "2006-05-20T16:17:41Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#): > > Hey, congratulations! You just described my law practice, and that of every non-government lawyer I’ve ever known. I’m glad we can finally agree that lawyers operate in a free market system, by your definition. > > Next hot topic: Is The Man really in charge of all the taxi drivers? Is it secret? Does paying twenty-five bucks at city hall make them tools of a plot designed to set a monopoly on fares?! Bar association are sometimes part of the gov’t. They regulate who can practice and how they practice. This is not a free system. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lawyer-licensing-necessary/356694/125 "2006-05-22T23:52:34Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > It probably won’t stop guys like that, nothing will. Actually, something did stop this guy. A judge grew suspicious of him and asked his bar card number, which she then called in to the state bar. The number he gave didn’t match his identity, so he was investigated by the unlicensed practice committee, which discovered what he’d been up to and instituted felony criminal charges for falsely holding oneself out as a lawyer and unlicensed practice of law. So instead of hurting people, he’s behind bars. Under your system, as you yourself admit, nothing would prevent this guy from doing the same thing over and over. > [@brickbacon](#): > > But what percentage of lawyers are as ethical as you? Probably not a whole lot. Your conduct aside, there is clearly a huge problem with the system as a whole. Most are, if for no other reason that the system requires them to be and they’ll get spanked if they aren’t. How does your system solve any problems? > [@brickbacon](#): > > Which no lawyer would ever do :dubious: I know you can’t bill ever hour you are at work, but finding time to bill 40 hours a week is not particularly difficult, and doesn’t negate his general point. It certainly negates his general point if he’s claiming that lawyers in that region enjoy a significantly higher income than they actually do. If you’re billing 40 hours a week, you’re actually working 50 or 60. > [@brickbacon](#): > > One which allows a law equivalent of H&R Block to do mundane, routine legal tasks at a low cost, a national (Ebay style) feedback system that allows people to rate lawyers, and one that doesn’t mandate one sacrifice 100k, and 3 years to do work that does not require that level of preparation. Wouldn’t work. Most of my indigent clients don’t have internet access, especially the incarcerated ones. Even if they did, the guys I represent often aren’t very good judges of whether or not I’m doing them a good job. The guy I wrote the appeal for would have written that I was the worst lawyer in the world, and I ended up winning his case for him. At least grievance committes have some objective standards and training to determine if I’m falling below a minimum level of competence. What’s the guy looking at capital murder going to do? “Well, I may be looking at a mandatory life sentence, but I left him a _very_ sharply worded comment in his feedback section!” > [@brickbacon](#): > > All amortized costs that don’t really factor into wages in the long term. Oh my. Paper, files, envelopes, more paper, stamps, new printer when the old one caves in, stationary, business cards, fax machine…do you have any idea what a copier costs? Just the copier will run you about $5000. You’ll be better off renting than buying, so expect to spend about $250 a month on just your copier, not counting all the many, many other things it’s going to take to keep your office running efficiently. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Not necessary in a free system. Maybe no bar dues if there’s no bar, but you’re still on the hook for your occupation tax, about $300. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Internet=$300/year, Other Bills vary. Working from home, greatly reduces these costs. Let’s estimate them at 3k/year. Now we are down to around 80k. Internet $300 a year, and internet legal research database up to $300 a _month_. Working from home may keep your electric bill down, but won’t do a damn thing for your phone bill, ink and toner cartridges, and everything else you’ll need to run your business, and it’s going to cost you a good deal more than $3000 a year. Heck, the copier alone is $3000 a year. Additionally, part of the reason I have an office is that I don’t have rapists, ax murderers and burglars knowing my home address, but whatever floats your boat. > [@brickbacon](#): > > You don’t need to hire anyone. Even if you do, let’s say that costs you 20k a year. If you don’t hire anyone, who’s going to go buy the office supplies and run grab a new toner cartridge while you’re billing hours? Why would anyone work that cheaply for you when they could open their own law practice doing the work for themselves that they’d be doing for you? > [@brickbacon](#): > > You are still at $60,000. Not a prince, but not a pauper. Still plenty of people would take that deal. That’s also assuming you do all of this alone, there are ways to cut costs. Your optimism would do a first year law student prouds, as your estimations of how much you’ll make are way too high, and your estimations on what you’ll be spending are way too low. In 2000 in Texas, the average income of the private practitioner with three to six years experience was $81,908, and the average billable hour was $197. A guy from the above cite states that in 2003, Michigan attorneys had a median net income of $73,500 per year and were billing at $170 an hour, and that median office expense per attorney were about $55,000 per year, or about $27.50 in office expenses for each hour billed. Every attorney I spoke with expressed astonishment at Massachusett’s pay rate for court appointments. $37.50 an hour would be a great salary for someone punching a clock who didn’t pay his own overhead, but for a self employed lawyer, it’s bordering on bankruptcy. If people could bill as efficiently as you say you can and keep costs as low as you claim, a Texas lawyer three years out of law school could make between $400,000 and $500,000 a year. There’s a reason why they don’t - it’s impossible. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lawyer-licensing-necessary/356694/126 "2006-05-23T00:11:17Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Like any job where training is needed, every company will have training requirements before giving a new person work they can’t handle. Wait, now you’re saying there _will_ be some standards of establishing competence? That’s a 180 from what you said before. Who is going to do this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lawyer-licensing-necessary/356694.md?page=6)