# Is liberalism dying worldwide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2010, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221 "2010-12-15T10:15:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/181 "2010-12-16T20:54:30Z")
Well, 2nd grade math does also include occasional allusions to politics, probably. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/182 "2010-12-16T20:58:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Social security programs are unfunded in many countries. They CAN’T AFFORD the packages voted into practice. **They are nothing but government ponzi schemes.** :rolleyes: **That** bullshit again?! ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/183 "2010-12-16T21:04:51Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The question people should be asking is why should Americans enjoy a higher standard of living if other countries have the ability to manufacture products better and more cheaply? The problem with that is you are implying that overpriced US production is why we are losing out. China’s currency issues, US tax policy and drastically low QC and environmental standards overseas put the US at a disadvantage with some jobs. Those aren’t due to high standards of living of US workers, they are out of their hands. Why should the US lower its wages and environmental regulations when we could just ask China to raise their instead? Chinas lower environmental laws save them billions over the US, but they cost them billions in health care, lost productivity and lost resources. Over the long run lifting the standards of living of people in Russia, China, India, Vietnam, Brazil, etc. is good for all of us. People who used to be subsistence farmers eventually become middle class consumers who buy our goods, as well as scientists and engineers who help solve the world’s biggest problems. But I don’t agree that wages/benefits for workers is the only reason outsourcing becomes appealing. Health care alone is a major factor in outsourcing. If the US’s health care system was as efficient as the UKs (only costing 8% of GDP rather than 17%), and was spread more evenly among society it would make the US more appealing to companies. As it stands companies have to pay a huge amount of money for health care. They pay half the medicare tax, they pay employee group premiums and their corporate taxes help fund programs like medicaid. Making China stop manipulating their currency, making our health care as efficient as the UKs, and encouraging other nations to implement basic human/labor/environmental rights would do a lot to make the US more competitive globally. None of those lower the standard of living of US workers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/184 "2010-12-16T21:09:34Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Rand wrote her work in a more industrial age, but I don’t think the particular industry was what was important. She seemed to advocate competency, innovation and free competition. It didn’t matter if you pushed a broom. You should do it to the best of your ability and should be rewarded if you figure out a way to do it more efficiently. The same priciples apply if the field is steel, telecom, biotech or whatever. The same principles do **not,** however, apply equally in an industrial or in a post-industrial setting. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/185 "2010-12-16T21:17:22Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > The countries in the most fiscal trouble in Liberal Europe are the ones that tried to be like the U.S., not tax and spend, but spend and spend. They forgot the high revenues part (Greece) or thought they could deliberately emulate us with a “perpetual growth” Reaganomics regime (Spain). Greece’s problem was not spend and spend. It was rampant tax evasion. They would have done much better with a flat consumption tax. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/186 "2010-12-16T21:22:41Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > Greece’s problem was not spend and spend. It was rampant tax evasion. They would have done much better with a flat consumption tax. Cite? Both for (1) tax evasion having caused the Greek financial crisis, and for (2) a “flat consumption tax” having a better track record for compliance and/or revenue yield than income tax or whatever Greek taxes you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/187 "2010-12-16T21:23:45Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > Greece’s problem was not spend and spend. It was rampant tax evasion. They would have done much better with a flat consumption tax. I know that their problem was rampant tax evasion. That is not in conflict with the fact that the cause of their fiscal woes was low tax revenues combined with high expenditures. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/188 "2010-12-16T21:58:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Just because statistics are like prisoners doesn’t mean “any comparisons are meaningless.” I totally disagree. The red-blue difference between states is so minor compared to other economical factors that one can’t make any confident comparisons. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/189 "2010-12-17T01:07:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The same principles do **not,** however, apply equally in an industrial or in a post-industrial setting. Explain to me why? The only difference is that in a post-industrial society, more people are knowledge workers instead of industrial or agricultural. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/190 "2010-12-17T01:50:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Better yet, if your source is full of holes, don’t use it. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you didn’t check it out. It’s OK, mods are busy, it’s the silly season, etc. It showed a few things: the most liberal states in the country are screwed financially - California, NY, Vermont. But I’m sure that’s a complete coincidence. Because you’ve taken the time to provide evidence to the contrary. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/191 "2010-12-17T01:53:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In the sense that it “seems right” to **Mr Smashy;** but in what sense of “right” is not entirely clear. 😉 **Brain** , I would have thought that after getting completely [owned](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13255669&postcount=124) in this conversation, you’d have piped down. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/192 "2010-12-17T01:55:41Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Here’s another interesting source: [GDP per capita by state](http://www.economics-charts.com/gdp/GDP-Per-Capita-by-gpc.html). If you look you’ll see mostly blue states at the top and red states dominating the bottom. Apparently this means that Red-staters are lazy sloths. (My point? That you can come up with all sorts of positive and negative stats broken up by state and that any comparisons are meaningless.) Interesting chart. But not really relevant to the point I was making. Apparently you wanted to make a different one? My point is, the more liberal the leadership (and populace?) of the states, it seems the less within their means they tend to live. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/193 "2010-12-17T02:02:27Z")
Missed the edit window: one more point. Just to be clear, I’m not saying that libs are bad at math, or suck at governing, etc. There’s lots of possible reasons: large populations of urbanites and other poor people may lead to liberal leadership, not the other way around, but all those welfare types tends to rape the budget math. Or maybe liberals (meaning Dems) have no stones when negotiating with their masters, the unions… it’s pretty much beyond question that this was the case in NJ, when Corzine was giving away the store (and banging the chief union negotiator 😉 , I heard). I hope their new gov has the ability to pull that state (my homestate!) out of the nosedive they were put into by the Democrat administrations and Democrat-dominated legislatures. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/194 "2010-12-17T03:45:38Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Really? You think 2nd-graders get macroeconomics? I think they can recognize that incoming revenue is less than outgoing expenditures. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/195 "2010-12-17T03:53:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: **That** bullshit again?! We are in deficit now with social security due to the recession and it will resume again in 2014 per the [annual report](http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html). We will be in a deficit revenue stream for social security on top of the currently 13.8 trillion dollar debt. Fewer working people will be paying a larger bill. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/196 "2010-12-17T04:42:34Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Interesting chart. But not really relevant to the point I was making. Apparently you wanted to make a different one? > > My point is, the more liberal the leadership (and populace?) of the states, it seems the less within their means they tend to live. Could be. Aside from texas, the states having the most fiscal problems tend to be blue states. However I don’t know if the problem is low tax revenue or high spending. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/197 "2010-12-17T14:01:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We are in deficit now with social security due to the recession and it will resume again in 2014 per the [annual report](http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html). We will be in a deficit revenue stream for social security on top of the currently 13.8 trillion dollar debt. Fewer working people will be paying a larger bill. None of which makes SS a “Ponzi scheme.” **That** is the bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/198 "2010-12-17T14:02:40Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > **Brain** , I would have thought that after getting completely [owned](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13255669&postcount=124) in this conversation, you’d have piped down. You are grossly devaluing the phrase “owned.” Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/199 "2010-12-17T14:58:48Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > It showed a few things: the most liberal states in the country are screwed financially - California, NY, Vermont. But I’m sure that’s a complete coincidence. Because you’ve taken the time to provide evidence to the contrary. Or not. [The most liberal states are also net losers in terms of federal taxes paid versus federal dollars spent, while the most conservative states are net beneficiaries of the federal budget](http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22685.html). Look at your three examples: California gets 78 cents of federal money for each dollar it pays in federal taxes. New York gets 79 cents. Vermont admittedly is a net beneficiary, at $1.08. The red state budgets are being _propped up_ by federal spending, for all their bitching. I hope you will accept being owned gracefully, and henceforward work to keep your fellow conservatives from raping the budget math, yes? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/200 "2010-12-17T15:39:53Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > **Brain** , I would have thought that after getting completely [owned](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13255669&postcount=124) in this conversation, you’d have piped down. Ever going to go back to your ridiculous claims about Germany and Japan post-WWII **Mr. Smashy**? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221.md?page=11)