# Is liberalism dying worldwide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2010, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221 "2010-12-15T10:15:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/201 "2010-12-17T15:48:17Z")
Is it OK for you to ask impertinent questions after you’ve been totally owned? We need a ruling on that. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/202 "2010-12-17T16:00:26Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Missed the edit window: one more point. > > Just to be clear, I’m not saying that libs are bad at math, or suck at governing, etc. There’s lots of possible reasons: large populations of urbanites and other poor people may lead to liberal leadership, not the other way around, but all those welfare types tends to rape the budget math. Or maybe liberals (meaning Dems) have no stones when negotiating with their masters, the unions… it’s pretty much beyond question that this was the case in NJ, when Corzine was giving away the store (and banging the chief union negotiator 😉 , I heard). I hope their new gov has the ability to pull that state (my homestate!) out of the nosedive they were put into by the Democrat administrations and Democrat-dominated legislatures. It’s like parents who goes into debt because they want their kids to have the best of everything and can’t say “no” to them. And I think both parties are guilty of it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/203 "2010-12-17T16:12:21Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Does the White House control spending? Or it also be relevant to look at who controlled Congress during these time periods as well? Sure its relevant but they don’t set the agenda. They don’t propose the budget. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/204 "2010-12-17T16:21:37Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > I’m sure you saw the state-by-state legislative results, right? Republicans scored a near record-breaking string of victories at the state level, across the country.And You don’t think most of this was fueled by anger about ObamaCare? I’m sure you saw the voter turn-out and the general level of disaffection by Democrats who were disappointed by the Obama’s inability to part the waters and then walk on them. > [@](#): > > Fine. I’m sorry I implied everyone else isn’t patriotic. I’ll try to be less inflammatory. Please don’t beat me for slipping up. 🙂 I think some posters are generally sick and tired of the attitude underlying the “slip-up” The attitude is that liberals hold liberal beliefs because they hold their liberal ideals above and beyond their concern for the welfare of this country. This may be true for some fringe element of liberals but its not true for most liberals and it is not true for Democrats. Republicans on the other hand seem to think that their philosophy is so important (and good for the country over the long run) that it is worth torpedoing the country over the short run in order to get in power so they can implement their own (superior) policies and they do it by wrapping themselves in a flag and holding up a cross. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/205 "2010-12-17T16:33:37Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > What then qualifies as a revolution? Armed rebellion? > > The public is ready to attack sacred cows like Social Security and unemployment extensions. We’re about to roll back health care reform (that is, if the USSC sends that law back to Congress). States are denying health care coverage for transplants and forcing people to go back to their communities for help instead. > > If liberalism isn’t dead it sure looks like it’s lost a limb or two. Liberalism will never be dead as long as people yearn for justice and equity. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/206 "2010-12-17T16:34:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m sure you saw the voter turn-out and the general level of disaffection by Democrats who were disappointed by the Obama’s inability to part the waters and then walk on them… Of course he walks on water! He can’t swim! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/207 "2010-12-17T16:37:28Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > You mean you don’t know about the reason behind the social security tax holiday? > > [http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/1210/Harkin\_Dean\_raise\_doubts\_on\_Social\_Security\_tax\_holiday\_AARP\_silent.html?showall](http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/1210/Harkin_Dean_raise_doubts_on_Social_Security_tax_holiday_AARP_silent.html?showall) > > Dean is whining about this, but I for one am glad to see this holiday has a chance of happening. It’ll bring us one step closer to ditching this $17.5 trillion unfunded liability. You do realize that they are paying the shortfall out of the general fund right? That’s why there is a budget cost to the tax holiday. Are you under the impression that one day they would allow a Social security tax holiday WITHOUT paying the difference out of the general fund? You couldn’t get 60 votes in the senate for that even if you 61 Republican senators. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/208 "2010-12-17T16:48:09Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > The public is ready to attack sacred cows like Social Security and unemployment extensions. You could not be more mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/209 "2010-12-17T16:48:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > None of which makes SS a “Ponzi scheme.” **That** is the bullshit. Politicians have been giving social security lip service for years knowing the baby boom generation would break it. Call it what you want but a “ponzi scheme” evokes an image of a financial instrument that is not self sustaining. It’s not meant to be taken literally. Social security is a government financial safety net that is not self sustaining which is how it was proposed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/210 "2010-12-17T16:51:29Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > It means being an actual neighbor. Being friends with your neighbors, pitching in to help the community, participating in donations when someone is down and out, that kind of thing. We used to have a system like that before and it sucked. People who were parts of more affluent communities never fell on their ass because “their neighbors” helped them out while people who were parts of poorer communities ended up on the street because their neighbors were only a couple of paychecks away from the streets themselves. > [@](#): > > I could never have been successful in life without my community. I made my money in legal multi level marketing areas by relying on friends, family, and networks of people. I had lean years, and I turned to my church for help. When I made good money I gave back to society. Even after leaving the country I give back to charities. But it’s my choice to do so. You made some money as an Amway salesman, and thats great but you8 should know better than anyone that the ability to be a successful multi-level marketer is fairly rare, most people buy the beginner kit, come to a couple of motivational speeches by people who have the personality to be really good at it and the they go home and stare at their beginner kits. > [@](#): > > Government-mandated charity just isn’t logical. If you want the Government to help, why not just donate yourself? Because there are things we can achieve with collective action that we cannot achieve by individual actions. > [@](#): > > Think about it for a second. You pay $100 in taxes to the Government. A chunk of this goes to pay a whole pile of bureaucracies and line some politician’s pocket. Maybe a dime goes to actually help the poor. Get rid of the Government taxes and nanny state programs and donate the $100 directly to March of Dimes. Don’t lock me down on an exact figure but I imagine 80 cents goes to the poor. Isn’t that more efficient? Are you under the impression that the March of Dimes has a lower expense ratio than say the Department of Health and Human Services? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/211 "2010-12-17T16:58:17Z")
The Germans have engineers, the Italians have opera singers, the French invented oral sex, and the Irish have poetry and music. America’s got salesmen. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/212 "2010-12-17T17:03:59Z")
I recall people asking about the death of liberalism in the mid-1980s. Then they asked about the death of conservatism in the 1990s. Now back again. They’ll be asking about the death of liberalism again about, oh, say 2025, mark my words. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/213 "2010-12-17T17:05:06Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’d lay odds that just about all of them would have opted early in their working lives to provide for their own old age I’ll take any odds on that bet, heck I’ll even give you odds that you are wrong. If past history or even current events are any indicator, it is clear that you are wrong. Look at America before social security, forget the great depression, go back to before the great depression, heck go back as far as you want, we never had a time when “just about all” workers opted to provide for their own old age (unless you count having kids as a retirement plan). > [@](#): > > forced them instead to participate in what amounts to a legal Ponzi scheme This allegation sounds familiar. I seem to recall a thread every couple of months that thoroughly debunks this claim and yet it still pops up from time to time. I wonder why that is? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/214 "2010-12-17T17:07:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I had this conversation over 20 years ago regarding the rise in housing prices. You can’t have an aset rise 3 times faster than the rate of inflation indefinitely without a collapse in prices. > > The same thing applies to deficit spending. You can’t spend more than is taken in indefinitely without a collapse in spending. We’re seeing it now all over the world. It simply can’t be done. That’s not true. The deficit can rise every year forever as long as the GDP rises by a higher percentage. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/215 "2010-12-17T17:11:41Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nope, ain’t gonna happen. Liberals are whingers. And contrarians. And they have to have some way to think they’re better than everyone else. It’s in their blood. Should the country ever become liberal in fact, they’ll become conservatives. Liberals frequently become conservatives. The folks who marched on Washington with MLK Jr. also voted for proposition 8 in California. After you get the justice YOU want, its not unusual to think everything ic perfectly fine with the world from that point on. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/216 "2010-12-17T17:15:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The Germans have engineers, the Italians have opera singers, the French invented oral sex, and the Irish have poetry and music. > > America’s got salesmen. …and rhythm. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/217 "2010-12-17T17:17:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Not to get off topic, but why do all the Ayn Rand Superfans on this board have jobs that are decidedly not “Randian”. Howard Roark was an architect. Hank Rearden ran a steel mill. Dagny Taggart ran a railroad. They designed and built and ran things. They didn’t hock vitamins or Cutco knives or work as a tax attorney. Well there are a few oil billionaires that seem pretty Ayn Randian. > [@](#): > > I like to push the “the unemployment rate will come down after the next cold snap” idea.😉 That’s pretty bleak, lets hope it never comes to that in this country because in the past, this was how we got rid of the poor and elderly, they just didn’t survive the winter. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/218 "2010-12-17T17:31:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Politicians have been giving social security lip service for years knowing the baby boom generation would break it. Call it what you want but a “ponzi scheme” evokes an image of a financial instrument that is not self sustaining. It’s not meant to be taken literally. Social security is a government financial safety net that is not self sustaining which is how it was proposed. Considering the fact that we have fiddled with the benefits and income side of social security dozens of times since its inception, how is social security not self sustaining? In fact we can eliminate the cap and presto, social security is solvent for the next hundred years. The reason social security can do this is because social security is not actually a financial instrument. We can change the tax rate if we need to, we can change the benefits if we need to. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/219 "2010-12-17T17:38:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The Germans have engineers, the Italians have opera singers, the French invented oral sex, and the Irish have poetry and music. > > America’s got salesmen. The Irish have what? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/220 "2010-12-17T17:40:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The Germans have engineers, the Italians have opera singers, the French invented oral sex, and the Irish have poetry and music. > > America’s got salesmen. In Heaven, the cooks are French, the police are British, the cars are German, and the women are Italian. In Hell, the cooks are British, the police are German, the cars are French, and the women are Italian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221.md?page=12)