# Is liberalism dying worldwide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2010, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221 "2010-12-15T10:15:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/41 "2010-12-15T16:49:03Z")
Ah…next time put in a tag like ‘for the humor impaired, this was a joke’ and I’ll be able to follow along. 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/42 "2010-12-15T16:49:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nevertheless, and for the record, anyone involved however marginally in the Tea Party movement **is** a flaming asshole, and anyone who voted GOP this year should be presumed so until proven neither rectal nor incendiary. Since I’d already directed everyone to drop this and specifically told you not to make those comments, I’m giving you a warning for ignoring moderator instructions. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/43 "2010-12-15T16:50:26Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Chinese laborers are forcing new labor and environmental standards, plus pushing back on human rights abuses. But wait! Where will corporate America find low page workers to exploit?! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/44 "2010-12-15T16:55:21Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > You may have heard the expression, the history of civilizations is capitalism on the way up, socialism on the way down. I suppose you can judge for yourself where we are on the curve. Actually, no-I haven’t. I Googled that phrase, and apparently it has only been said twice. By _you_, in two different SDMB threads. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/45 "2010-12-15T17:03:34Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I think he’s referring to the Roman handouts of food, about the only historical example of socialism I can think of. > > It definitely led very directly to the collapse of the Roman civilization. After all, after they begun the massive handouts, they only managed to last for 3 or 400 more years. It wasn’t my expression, just something I heard somewhere. Is it true? You tell me. I’m sure that there have been examples of capitalism and socialism in history - weren’t the Pilgrims originally socialists, until that failed miserably, and they turned to capitalism which saved the day? Or is that an old wives tail? The British and French empires started off ruling the world - then they get all socialist-y and now look at them. As for Cuba, seems like people are combining the economic and political systems. They’re probably an example of communism plus socialism (failure). I’d guess China is an example of communism plus capitalism (blooming). ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/46 "2010-12-15T17:05:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Actually, no-I haven’t. I Googled that phrase, and apparently it has only been said twice. > By _you_, in two different SDMB threads. Trust me, I didn’t make it up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/47 "2010-12-15T17:08:07Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > It wasn’t my expression, just something I heard somewhere. Is it true? You tell me. I’m sure that there have been examples of capitalism and socialism in history - weren’t the Pilgrims originally socialists, until that failed miserably, and they turned to capitalism which saved the day? Or is that an old wives tail? Not an old wive’s _tale_-more than likely just another original idea of yours that you are trying to pass off as common knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/48 "2010-12-15T17:09:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yeah, we should go back to the good old days when illiteracy was rampant and people starved to death. Like the poor matter. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/49 "2010-12-15T17:10:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Since I’d already directed everyone to drop this and specifically told you not to make those comments, I’m giving you a warning for ignoring moderator instructions. :dubious: Is there an appeal procedure for this? I don’t think it counts as “flaming” to direct insults, however meaty, to swathes of the general population, however wide, so long as one does not directly flame another Doper. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/50 "2010-12-15T17:12:18Z")
**Mr Smashy** , it sounds like you don’t know what socialist means. You should probably look that up. Maybe the Pilgrims had some elements in their society that could be described as socialistic (although I’ve never ever heard anybody say that was the case), but the principles of socialism come from Karl Marx, and he was writing 200 years after the Pilgrims. China has an authoritarian government and parts of a free market economy, but “communism plus capitalism” does not make sense. What they are doing is sometimes described as state capitalism, but I don’t think that has to go hand in hand with an authoritarian government. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/51 "2010-12-15T17:13:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: Is there an appeal procedure for this? I don’t think it counts as “flaming” to direct insults, however meaty, to swathes of the general population, however wide, so long as one does not directly flame another Doper. Let’s take this to private messages or ATMB, please. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/52 "2010-12-15T17:16:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not an old wive’s _tale_-more than likely just another original idea of yours that you are trying to pass off as common knowledge. Whoops, good catch on tale… Sorry that you are impervious to reason wrt to the origin. I’m not nearly smart enough to come up with that stuff. Not like everyone else on this board, anyway :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/53 "2010-12-15T17:18:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Mr Smashy** , it sounds like you don’t know what socialist means. You should probably look that up. Maybe the Pilgrims had some elements in their society that could be described as socialistic (although I’ve never ever heard anybody say that was the case), but the principles of socialism come from Karl Marx, and he was writing 200 years after the Pilgrims. China has an authoritarian government and parts of a free market economy, but “communism plus capitalism” does not make sense. What they are doing is sometimes described as state capitalism, but I don’t think that has to go hand in hand with an authoritarian government. Are you suggesting that socialism, as a concept but perhaps not labeled as such (which is certainly rigorous enough for the discussion we’re having), didn’t exist until Karl allegedly wrote about it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/54 "2010-12-15T17:20:13Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Whoops, good catch on tale… > > Sorry that you are impervious to reason wrt to the origin. I’m not nearly smart enough to come up with that stuff. Not like everyone else on this board, anyway :rolleyes: In your defense, neither the phrase nor the idea you posted afterward seem at all “smart”, so I’m am sure you are capable of thinking up either/both. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/55 "2010-12-15T17:23:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Mr Smashy** but the principles of socialism come from Karl Marx, and he was writing 200 years after the Pilgrims. Marx produced what he considered the principles of ‘scientific socialism’ in direct challenge to what he deemed ‘utopian socialism.’ ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/56 "2010-12-15T17:31:32Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > But wait! Where will corporate America find low page workers to exploit?! I don’t know if you were joking about exploiting them or not (I assume so) since grassroots labor/environmental movements seem to be a natural progression when economic growth occurs. But I have heard no nation offers all the benefits of China. A surplus of educated, healthy, young, low paid, obedient workers Few labor and environmental protections A stable, business friendly government Good infrastructure No other nation offers all those things at once. So hopefully that’ll give more leverage to labor against capital once China prices itself out of the market. I’ve heard companies are moving to Bangladesh, Vietnam, India, etc. now that China’s standards are going up. But those nations all have problems China didn’t (too few people, illiteracy, health problems among workers, crappy infrastructure, etc). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/57 "2010-12-15T17:38:58Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Are you suggesting that socialism, as a concept but perhaps not labeled as such (which is certainly rigorous enough for the discussion we’re having), didn’t exist until Karl allegedly wrote about it? I think applying Marx’s term to societies that existed long before Marx is always going to be a stretch and a matter of ideological interpretation. > [@tagos](#): > > Marx produced what he considered the principles of ‘scientific socialism’ in direct challenge to what he deemed ‘utopian socialism.’ That might be an interesting point even though that’s also his term. I don’t want to start a hijack about Puritan society. I was saying I don’t know where **Mr Smashy** gets his analysis from. I’m even more dubious of the idea that the British and French empires declined because of socialism. Certainly Britain was ruthlessly capitalist for a very long time (debtors’ prisons, colonialism) and that was independent from the reasons the empire declined (difficulty of governing such a geographically disparate empire, World War II). ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/58 "2010-12-15T17:41:03Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Trust me, I didn’t make it up. Never heard it in my life. Then again, I don’t hang out with crazy whack job the market can solve all ills people. I am sure one of them said it. So just because you didn’t make it up, I would advise you against assuming the people you hang out with are a normal cross section of society. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/59 "2010-12-15T17:43:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Maybe the Pilgrims had some elements in their society that could be described as socialistic (although I’ve never ever heard anybody say that was the case), but the principles of socialism come from Karl Marx, and he was writing 200 years after the Pilgrims. I think Robert Owen, for example, would disagree with you. Except that he’s dead. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/60 "2010-12-15T17:48:13Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I don’t know if you were joking about exploiting them or not . I don’t know either anymore.☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221.md?page=4)