# Is liberalism dying worldwide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2010, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221 "2010-12-15T10:15:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/101 "2010-12-15T21:53:18Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Well OK then, by your math then Japan should never have risen post WWII? or Germany? Surely they were both hammered as much or more than Britian and France, yet both rose to economic prowess under capitalistic systems (until very recently I guess). My God, I could get whiplash from the goalposts moving here. You initially talk about their decline from positions as world powers. That is a geo-political, military construct. Now you are talking about economic prowess. Make your mind up (assuming you realize there is a difference here). Now, on economics, there are different factors at play. Firstly, Japan wasn’t a free market. It’s economic rebirth was (a) important to the US for anti-communist reasons and (b) the product of immense state intervention. I assuming from your comments you are unaware of the role of MITI. Look it up. As for Germany, it was no more free market than Britain. You’d papper your cute little Republican britches if you had to live under that sort of government, even when the Christian Democrats have been in power. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/102 "2010-12-15T21:54:08Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Wait… are you suggesting that America’s government is small? Most people in this country would disagree. > > A blog [here](http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2008/03/government-spending-as-percentage-of.html) suggest that Government expenditures as a percentage of GDP, which is not a bad proxy for government size, is 40% in this country. That puts us as the 70th largest, in the top half. And that was 2 years ago, when our government spending was a hell of a lot less. > > I wouldn’t call it small, especially as it relates to recent history. Well, if we consider **federal** government only – which is what American RWs and economic-libertarians usually mean when they say “government”: [U.S. GDP 2009: $14.3 trillion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._GDP) or $14,300 billion. [U.S. Federal Budget 2009: $3.518 billion.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget) So, no, nowhere near 40% of GDP. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/103 "2010-12-15T21:56:37Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Now, on economics, there are different factors at play. Firstly, Japan wasn’t a free market. It’s economic rebirth was (a) important to the US for anti-communist reasons and (b) the product of immense state intervention. Furthermore, Japan’s earlier rapid modernization and industrialization after the Meiji Restoration was also the product of immense state intervention. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/104 "2010-12-15T21:59:14Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > I’m sure you saw the state-by-state legislative results, right? Republicans scored a near record-breaking string of victories at the state level, across the country. Snort. Yes, it was a large win for the Republican Party. It is not a revolt if you have to quality it with goofy adjectives like “near record-breaking.” > [@](#): > > And You don’t think most of this was fueled by anger about ObamaCare? For the most part, no. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/105 "2010-12-15T22:08:13Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Personally, I think it’s useful to think of the previous examples: Britian and France, once world powers, get more socia… liberal… and are trainwrecks (fiscally) now. Most American states in good fiscal shape are conservative, most in dire straights are liberal. Would you cite that, please? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/106 "2010-12-15T22:08:24Z")
As the old bigotry dies out or becomes untenable with the end of another generation, successive groups of people are granted the rights that the old majority once took for granted. Whether it’s women, blacks, or gays, civil rights are expanding, not contracting. And in every generation what was once liberal (Social Security, labor laws, equal rights, minimum wage, etc.) is now touted as a fundamental value whether you’re conservative or not. Liberalism isn’t dying, it’s the new normal. Conservatism is dying. In 20 or 30 years, no one will even remember why gay rights once had to be fought for, it will be the default. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/107 "2010-12-15T22:09:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Snort. Yes, it was a large win for the Republican Party. It is not a revolt if you have to quality it with goofy adjectives like “near record-breaking.” Point taken. The Republicans gained nearly 700 state legislative seats in November. This is the biggest gain since 1938 and much bigger than the revolution of 1994. Republicans control more of the country’s state legislatures than they did since 1952. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2010/11/14/ST2010111400091.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2010/11/14/ST2010111400091.html) My adjectives may have been goofy, sir, but I was just trying to be concise. You will have to talk to your grandparents and maybe even your great grandparents to hear about the last time any political party delivered a ballot box beating of this magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/108 "2010-12-15T22:15:00Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > As the old bigotry dies out or becomes untenable with the end of another generation, successive groups of people are granted the rights that the old majority once took for granted. Whether it’s women, blacks, or gays, civil rights are expanding, not contracting. And in every generation what was once liberal (Social Security, labor laws, equal rights, minimum wage, etc.) is now touted as a fundamental value whether you’re conservative or not. > > Liberalism isn’t dying, it’s the new normal. Conservatism is dying. In 20 or 30 years, no one will even remember why gay rights once had to be fought for, it will be the default. True. Economic liberalism - as in, less Government control of economics - is on the rise. It would only be consistent that the Government stay out of the bedroom. We have no business deciding what ‘marriage’ means between two people. Then again I don’t even care about polygamy - it’s their choice what they do as long as they don’t harm others. Then again you can also define Conservatism as limited Government, too. As in, “the Government is too conservative about its use of power” versus “the Government uses its power liberally”, LOL. Just tryin’ to be funny (please don’t beat me, moderators!) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/109 "2010-12-15T22:15:23Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > This is the biggest gain since 1938 and much bigger than the revolution of 1994. You do know that what happened in 1994 was not _really_ a revolution, right? It was a catchy name given to a big electoral victory. > [@](#): > > My adjectives may have been goofy, sir, but I was just trying to be concise. You will have to talk to your grandparents and maybe even your great grandparents to hear about the last time any political party delivered a ballot box beating of this magnitude. That’s true. On the other hand, it’s not true that it’s a revolt. It’s also not true that this is some kind of permanent change or a representation of the death of liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/110 "2010-12-15T22:17:02Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Liberalism isn’t dying, it’s the new normal. Conservatism is dying. In 20 or 30 years, no one will even remember why gay rights once had to be fought for, it will be the default. Interesting take. Conservatism is in a constant state of dying, liberalism in a constant state of birth. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/111 "2010-12-15T22:20:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You do know that what happened in 1994 was not _really_ a revolution, right? It was a catchy name given to a big electoral victory. > That’s true. On the other hand, it’s not true that it’s a revolt. It’s also not true that this is some kind of permanent change or a representation of the death of liberalism. What then qualifies as a revolution? Armed rebellion? The public is ready to attack sacred cows like Social Security and unemployment extensions. We’re about to roll back health care reform (that is, if the USSC sends that law back to Congress). States are denying health care coverage for transplants and forcing people to go back to their communities for help instead. If liberalism isn’t dead it sure looks like it’s lost a limb or two. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/112 "2010-12-15T22:27:40Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > Then again you can also define Conservatism as limited Government, too. As in, “the Government is too conservative about its use of power” versus “the Government uses its power liberally”, LOL. Just tryin’ to be funny (please don’t beat me, moderators!) No you can’t. It may be what Conservatives want people to believe, but in practice, this isn’t what conservatives act like. It would be like me saying Communism is the best form of government because everyone’s equal. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Interesting take. Conservatism is in a constant state of dying, liberalism in a constant state of birth. It’s ironic in a way, kind of funny too. There will always be liberal and conservative positions, but the absolute line for these are always relative to the middle. When the middle sways left, the “absolute” limits sway left. There seems to be a few beliefs that are harder to move than others, but how can anyone say that just because a few conservatives won control of their government, that we’re exactly or more conservative than we are, say, 50 years ago? 50 years ago a black guy would get beat up for whistling at a white woman in the South! 100 years ago women couldn’t vote and child labor was legal! These things are seen as crazy now. Some of us liberals may wish that things moved a little faster, but some of us also know that the world is becoming little by little more liberal, despite occasional hiccups along the way. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/113 "2010-12-15T22:30:57Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > What then qualifies as a revolution? Armed rebellion? > > The public is ready to attack sacred cows like Social Security and unemployment extensions. We’re about to roll back health care reform (that is, if the USSC sends that law back to Congress). States are denying health care coverage for transplants and forcing people to go back to their communities for help instead. > > If liberalism isn’t dead it sure looks like it’s lost a limb or two. Yes. The only thing that qualifies as a revolution is armed rebellion. Everything else is normal political ups and downs. And I don’t think Social Security is in any serious danger. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/114 "2010-12-15T22:46:21Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > True. Economic liberalism - as in, less Government control of economics - is on the rise. > … > The public is ready to attack sacred cows like Social Security and unemployment extensions. We’re about to roll back health care reform (that is, if the USSC sends that law back to Congress). States are denying health care coverage for transplants and forcing people to go back to their communities for help instead. This would seem to be classic example of confusing your wishes for what is actually true. Extension of unemployment, for instance? Surely you know that the compromise hammered out between Obama and congressional Republicans, the same one you were so happy about in your first post, also contains an extension of unemployment. The public wants to attack Social Security? That’s news to me. States denying health care to needy people? Yes, that’s happening, but I haven’t heard anyone saying that they’re doing it on principle. They’re doing it because there’s been a financial crisis and they’re out of money. The fact that you’re happy about this development … well, I won’t comment on that. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/115 "2010-12-15T23:41:14Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Yes. The only thing that qualifies as a revolution is armed rebellion. > > Everything else is normal political ups and downs. > > And I don’t think Social Security is in any serious danger. You do know the whole point behind the social security tax holiday, right? I mean, everyone knows what this is about. It’s about slowly starving the blue beast. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/116 "2010-12-16T00:12:38Z")
What? Everybody knows that? And I didn’t? Well, _day-um_! All those T-Per’s, with their “Hands Off My Social Security” signs, they’re all part of a suicide pact? Son of a gun! ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/117 "2010-12-16T00:29:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What? Everybody knows that? And I didn’t? Well, _day-um_! All those T-Per’s, with their “Hands Off My Social Security” signs, they’re all part of a suicide pact? Son of a gun! You mean you don’t know about the reason behind the social security tax holiday? [http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/1210/Harkin\_Dean\_raise\_doubts\_on\_Social\_Security\_tax\_holiday\_AARP\_silent.html?showall](http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/1210/Harkin_Dean_raise_doubts_on_Social_Security_tax_holiday_AARP_silent.html?showall) Dean is whining about this, but I for one am glad to see this holiday has a chance of happening. It’ll bring us one step closer to ditching this $17.5 trillion unfunded liability. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/118 "2010-12-16T01:08:14Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > You mean you don’t know about the reason behind the social security tax holiday? > > [http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/1210/Harkin\_Dean\_raise\_doubts\_on\_Social\_Security\_tax\_holiday\_AARP\_silent.html?showall](http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/1210/Harkin_Dean_raise_doubts_on_Social_Security_tax_holiday_AARP_silent.html?showall) > > Dean is whining about this, but I for one am glad to see this holiday has a chance of happening. It’ll bring us one step closer to ditching this $17.5 trillion unfunded liability. But, neither Dean nor AARP nor anybody else in that story says it’s “about slowly starving the blue beast.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/119 "2010-12-16T01:23:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, if we consider **federal** government only – which is what American RWs and economic-libertarians usually mean when they say “government”: > > [U.S. GDP 2009: $14.3 trillion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._GDP) or $14,300 billion. > > [U.S. Federal Budget 2009: $3.518 billion.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget) > > So, no, nowhere near 40% of GDP. I assume you didn’t check out the source. I was referring to all government spending. 39% is probably a light estimate, as I’m sure you’d agree. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/120 "2010-12-16T01:28:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Would you cite that, please? Here’s an interesting [source](http://blogs.sacbee.com/i-tool_tips/2009/02/map-give-quick-overview-of-sta.html) If we use budget gaps as a proxy for state fiscal health (and that doesn’t seem too unreasonable to me), we see that, _in general_, the more liberal a states’ fiscal policies, in general the worse off they are. Now, before you word nazis get all apoplectic and start spitting in your starbucks, I’m using the word liberal here ONLY IN THE SENSE of higher taxes and higher spending (and high regulation, for those few areas of our lives left where states do the regulatin’). Again, I think that’s what the OP had in mind when s/he talked about liberalism. If you want to use a different word, feel free to propose one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221.md?page=7)