# Is liberalism dying worldwide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2010, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221 "2010-12-15T10:15:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/141 "2010-12-16T06:59:02Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > There’ll be set backs along the way and occasional conservative victories, like theyhad with all the above issues, particularly civil rights over the decades of last century, but eventually we’ll get absolutely everything we want. Nope, ain’t gonna happen. Liberals are whingers. And contrarians. And they have to have some way to think they’re better than everyone else. It’s in their blood. Should the country ever become liberal in fact, they’ll become conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/142 "2010-12-16T07:01:07Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I don’t see anybody anywhere advocating indefinite budget deficits. I see plenty of countries in financial distress because they DID it. The result has been massive cutbacks in countries like the UK and Greece and people are rioting over it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/143 "2010-12-16T07:02:06Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nope, ain’t gonna happen. Liberals are whingers. And contrarians. And they have to have some way to think they’re better than everyone else. No, that would be the Tea Partiers. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/144 "2010-12-16T07:02:14Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > Aren’t the unemployment benefits being extended because the Republicans got the tax cut extensions they wanted? > > I read the polls and I see the support… but if the Democrats had refused to cooperate with the tax cut extensions for the rich, do you think the Republicans would have held up the benefits extensions indefinitely until the Democrats caved? I believe so, and the Republicans would have prevailed. Remember, they did this back in the summer and it did not break their momentum. > > Again, I understand the enormous public support for unemployment extensions… I’m just pointing out that this was not enough to discourage the Republicans to avoid blocking them. The Republicans are acting with near total impunity. One has to wonder why. > And if you live in Canada or Europe and you have a sickness like cancer you will be more likely to die than in the U.S. > [http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2009/07/21/most-cancer-survival-rates-in-usa-better-than-europe-and-canada/](http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2009/07/21/most-cancer-survival-rates-in-usa-better-than-europe-and-canada/) > > When you bring the Government into the equation all you do is move the problem around - instead of a lack of funding you wind up on a waiting list for care. > > I do not profess to know what the solution is for people who are too poor to afford medical care but the Government is not it. We have Government health care agencies around the country cutting life-saving services, even to dying babies. It just doesn’t work. > > We need more private charity involvement. > Fair enough, I’ll look it up. Yes, if you switch to a government system all you get are waiting lists. Look what it’s like in Canada : Just six months ago, the clinic delivered same-day care to most callers, the gold standard from a health perspective. But in October the delays crept to four days, then 19 in November and 25 in December. In January, HealthServe temporarily stopped accepting new patients, and almost immediately 380 people put their names on a waiting list for when the crunch eases. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/19/AR2009041902239.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/19/AR2009041902239.html) Oh, did I say Canada, I meant North Carolina. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/145 "2010-12-16T07:06:03Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t see anybody anywhere advocating indefinite budget deficits. Well, there was that one guy. “Budgets? Budgets? We don’t need no _steeenking_ budgets!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/146 "2010-12-16T07:06:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I see plenty of countries in financial distress because they DID it. The result has been massive cutbacks in countries like the UK and Greece and people are rioting over it. Really? I see even more countries in even worse distress because they followed the IMF’s “austerity” and “shock therapy” measures. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/147 "2010-12-16T07:06:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I see plenty of countries in financial distress because they DID it. The result has been massive cutbacks in countries like the UK and Greece and people are rioting over it. That’s not answering my point. Exactly who is calling for indefinite deficit spending? Countries like the UK and Ireland are in massive debt due to bailing out their private sector banking systems which blew their respective economys up due to not being regulated. Ireland actually had a budget surplus pre-2008 meltdown. Greece has been in default or thereabouts more than half the time since the 1800s, well before anybody heard of socialism. It’s more mass corruption down there than anything, failure to collect taxes etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/148 "2010-12-16T07:09:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nope, ain’t gonna happen. Liberals are whingers. And contrarians. And they have to have some way to think they’re better than everyone else. It’s in their blood. Should the country ever become liberal in fact, they’ll become conservatives. Yes, when the country finally has equal rights for everybody and decent public services like every other major economy it’ll be exactly what conservatives have spent the last hundred plus years fighting for. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/149 "2010-12-16T07:10:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …Should the country ever become liberal in fact, they’ll become conservatives. No, then they can quit and go fishing. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/150 "2010-12-16T07:14:14Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > That’s not answering my point. Exactly who is calling for indefinite deficit spending? . It’s a spurious question to ask. Obviously nobody stood on a soap box and said vote for me and I’ll bankrupt the country with indefinite deficit spending. Didn’t stop them from doing it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/151 "2010-12-16T07:18:45Z")
No, but they did go on TV and say, hey, we’re going to start a war! For nothing! And borrow the money! But hey, the real estate market is great! Everybody is making tons of free money! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/152 "2010-12-16T13:06:15Z")
The countries in the most fiscal trouble in Liberal Europe are the ones that tried to be like the U.S., not tax and spend, but spend and spend. They forgot the high revenues part (Greece) or thought they could deliberately emulate us with a “perpetual growth” Reaganomics regime (Spain). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/153 "2010-12-16T13:13:06Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > That’s not answering my point. Exactly who is calling for indefinite deficit spending? The right wingers who push the “Starve the Beast” idea, who want to drive the economy into another Great Depression and the government into catastrophic debt so the government will have no choice but to cut back on the Ultimate Evil of social programs like Social Security and Medicare. And if people end up starving in the the street or the nation collapses - well, that’s better than the utter evil of _socialism_. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/154 "2010-12-16T14:02:43Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > I could never have been successful in life without my community. I made my money in legal multi level marketing areas by relying on friends, family, and networks of people. Not to get off topic, but why do all the Ayn Rand Superfans on this board have jobs that are decidedly not “Randian”. Howard Roark was an architect. Hank Rearden ran a steel mill. Dagny Taggart ran a railroad. They designed and built and ran things. They didn’t hock vitamins or Cutco knives or work as a tax attorney. > [@Ludovic](#): > > The countries in the most fiscal trouble in Liberal Europe are the ones that tried to be like the U.S., not tax and spend, but spend and spend. They forgot the high revenues part (Greece) or thought they could deliberately emulate us with a “perpetual growth” Reaganomics regime (Spain). Well, it seems like the US is becoming more like the PIGS (Portugual, Italy, Greece, Spain) countries than the other way around. Mind as well throw in Hungary, Latvia, Iceland, Italy, Romania and UK as well. It’s all part of the same problem. Governments spending more money than they are taking in, corruption, debt and bubble economies. People have this fantast that the government in its infinite wisdom can solve all their ills while money-making companies will provide an endless source of revenue. I don’t see what is so hard about creating a sustainable system. It would be basically an accounting problem except that governments lack the political will to say “no, we can’t afford that”. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The right wingers who push the “Starve the Beast” idea, who want to drive the economy into another Great Depression and the government into catastrophic debt so the government will have no choice but to cut back on the Ultimate Evil of social programs like Social Security and Medicare. And if people end up starving in the the street or the nation collapses - well, that’s better than the utter evil of _socialism_. I like to push the “the unemployment rate will come down after the next cold snap” idea.😉 ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/155 "2010-12-16T15:29:28Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > And if you live in Canada or Europe and you have a sickness like cancer you will be more likely to die than in the U.S. > [http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2009/07/21/most-cancer-survival-rates-in-usa-better-than-europe-and-canada/](http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2009/07/21/most-cancer-survival-rates-in-usa-better-than-europe-and-canada/) Not wanting to continue flogging horse that has already been flogged to death on this board, but you really should check out some of the comments on that blog post to get an idea of the context of those claims. As the cliché goes, there’s “lies, damned lies and statistics”. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/156 "2010-12-16T15:33:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The right wingers who push the “Starve the Beast” idea, who want to drive the economy into another Great Depression and the government into catastrophic debt so the government will have no choice but to cut back on the Ultimate Evil of social programs like Social Security and Medicare. And if people end up starving in the the street or the nation collapses - well, that’s better than the utter evil of _socialism_. Except that defense budgets are completely immune to calls for austerity\*, which leads to the spectacle of conservatives screaming “Cut Spending! Cut Spending!! CUT SPENDING!!! Oh, and appropriate another trillion dollars for our military campaigns”. \*Except in Britain ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/157 "2010-12-16T15:52:42Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Not to get off topic, but why do all the Ayn Rand Superfans on this board have jobs that are decidedly not “Randian”. Howard Roark was an architect. Hank Rearden ran a steel mill. Dagny Taggart ran a railroad. They designed and built and ran things. They didn’t hock vitamins or Cutco knives or work as a tax attorney. Well, for one thing, it seems like there aren’t that many “Randian” jobs to go around in America any more, if ever there were. Even (especially) if a factory-worker’s job counts as “Randian.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/158 "2010-12-16T15:54:46Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t see what is so hard about creating a sustainable system. It would be basically an accounting problem except that governments lack the political will to say “no, we can’t afford that”. The problem is not so much that governments lack political will as that corporations do not. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/159 "2010-12-16T16:23:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The problem is not so much that governments lack political will as that corporations do not. Left to their own, companies that can’t balance their budgets go out of business. National governments don’t have to balance their budgets because in simple terms, they can simply print more money. Print enough money, however, and it becomes effectively worthless. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, for one thing, it seems like there aren’t that many “Randian” jobs to go around in America any more, if ever there were. Even (especially) if a factory-worker’s job counts as “Randian.” Rand wrote her work in a more industrial age, but I don’t think the particular industry was what was important. She seemed to advocate competency, innovation and free competition. It didn’t matter if you pushed a broom. You should do it to the best of your ability and should be rewarded if you figure out a way to do it more efficiently. The same priciples apply if the field is steel, telecom, biotech or whatever. The question people should be asking is why should Americans enjoy a higher standard of living if other countries have the ability to manufacture products better and more cheaply? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/160 "2010-12-16T16:27:17Z")
I guess **Mr Smashy** has forgotten his defense of the power of the free market in restoring Germany and Japan post-WWII. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221.md?page=9)