# Is liberalism dying worldwide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2010, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221 "2010-12-15T10:15:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/161 "2010-12-16T16:44:08Z")
Somehow, I am totally unsurprised that the OP “made his money” in multi-level marketing. > [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Here’s an interesting [source](http://blogs.sacbee.com/i-tool_tips/2009/02/map-give-quick-overview-of-sta.html) > > If we use budget gaps as a proxy for state fiscal health (and that doesn’t seem too unreasonable to me), we see that, _in general_, the more liberal a states’ fiscal policies, in general the worse off they are. Convenient that most of the red states have “no data available”. Perhaps they’re just too depressed to report. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/162 "2010-12-16T17:12:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Interesting, although I note that a lot of states didn’t provide any data. I’d say most of those states lean conservative, which makes it hard to perform a real comparison. I agree. If you have a better source, please send it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/163 "2010-12-16T17:18:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Somehow, I am totally unsurprised that the OP “made his money” in multi-level marketing. > > Convenient that most of the red states have “no data available”. Perhaps they’re just too depressed to report. If you have another source, again, I’m all ears. It just ‘seems right’ to me that the most conservative states (populace and legislature) would be the best run, fiscally. But that’s the centrist view. Maybe a liberal would see things differently. If so, please feel free to post another source about it. All I have is anecdotes: NY in awful shape, California in worse shape, both states very liberal and run by Democrats for years. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/164 "2010-12-16T17:22:51Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > It just ‘seems right’ to me that the most conservative states (populace and legislature) would be the best run, fiscally. But that’s the centrist view. Maybe a liberal would see things differently. In what possible sense is that the _centrist_ view?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/165 "2010-12-16T17:52:27Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I agree. If you have a better source, please send it. Better yet, if your source is full of holes, don’t use it. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/166 "2010-12-16T17:58:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s a spurious question to ask. Obviously nobody stood on a soap box and said vote for me and I’ll bankrupt the country with indefinite deficit spending. Didn’t stop them from doing it. I’m just asking you to qualify a statement you made, I’m not asking you anything complicated. Nobody is advocating indefinite deficit spending. Just one short decade ago America had a budget surplus. Going into the meltdown Ireland and Spain had a budget surplus. It would appear that countries with welfare states can indeed pay for them, it’s just the unregulated private sector that has brought about the current massive budget deficits and the need for governments to continue deficit spending. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/167 "2010-12-16T18:27:29Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > It just ‘seems right’ to me that the most conservative states (populace and legislature) would be the best run, fiscally. But that’s the centrist view. Maybe a liberal would see things differently. Why should it? I’ve repeatedly presented data here that shows at the federal level, when Democrats are in the White House, the country does better on just about any fiscal/economic measure you can think of. We’ve even done red states versus blue states as net contributors or teat-suckers for federal money, and the red states are clearly teat-suckers. All that’s old news, and completely goes against your “just seems right” expectations. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/168 "2010-12-16T18:50:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In what possible sense is that the _centrist_ view?:dubious: In the sense that it “seems right” to **Mr Smashy;** but in what sense of “right” is not entirely clear. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/169 "2010-12-16T19:03:09Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Here’s an interesting [source](http://blogs.sacbee.com/i-tool_tips/2009/02/map-give-quick-overview-of-sta.html) > > If we use budget gaps as a proxy for state fiscal health (and that doesn’t seem too unreasonable to me), we see that, _in general_, the more liberal a states’ fiscal policies, in general the worse off they are. Here’s another interesting source: [GDP per capita by state](http://www.economics-charts.com/gdp/GDP-Per-Capita-by-gpc.html). If you look you’ll see mostly blue states at the top and red states dominating the bottom. Apparently this means that Red-staters are lazy sloths. (My point? That you can come up with all sorts of positive and negative stats broken up by state and that any comparisons are meaningless.) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/170 "2010-12-16T19:14:47Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > What about Newt Gingrich when he said Obama wants to hand out welfare checks and Republicans want to hand out paychecks? Not Republicans in office, surely. Public works would imply raising taxes to pay all those government salaries. As far as the efficiency of private charities contrasted to government welfare spending, I think ironically private charities may be worse for the reasons we expect them to be better. They lack the structural incentives for oversight that government agencies do. Private institutions lack the ability to coerce funds, it is true. But government agencies aren’t just coercing funds at will either. The government does a lot of stuff beyond charity, & charity is not seen as directly benefiting the government as organization; it can be hard to get funds into charitable programs. Private charities rely on those who donate, feel good for having done so, & don’t check where the money goes. Government agencies have to beg for their piece of the pile of extorted tax dollars from politicians, some of whom would rather spend the money on security apparatus to protect their station, & many of whom will hold the agency’s feet to the fire for fear that they’re wasting tax monies. Private charities can waste enormous amounts. Of course, there’s a lot of variety in actual practice. But at least we can agree with this guy: [QUOTE=Austin Cline, “Austin’s Atheism Blog”] [http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/04/13/efficiency-of-private-charities.htm](http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/04/13/efficiency-of-private-charities.htm) Can private organizations be more efficient than the government? At times - and usually because private organizations don’t have to follow all of the rules designed to ensure that government organizations are answerable to the public and as fair as possible. Even then, however, they aren’t necessarily better or more efficient. We can see plenty of waste, mismanagement, and other skulduggery in private companies all of the time. Organizations are as good as the people who run them - private or public. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/171 "2010-12-16T19:43:10Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Here’s another interesting source: [GDP per capita by state](http://www.economics-charts.com/gdp/GDP-Per-Capita-by-gpc.html). If you look you’ll see mostly blue states at the top and red states dominating the bottom. Apparently this means that Red-staters are lazy sloths. (My point? That you can come up with all sorts of positive and negative stats broken up by state and that any comparisons are meaningless.) Just because statistics are like prisoners doesn’t mean “any comparisons are meaningless.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/172 "2010-12-16T19:52:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The right wingers who push the “Starve the Beast” idea, who want to drive the economy into another Great Depression and the government into catastrophic debt so the government will have no choice but to cut back on the Ultimate Evil of social programs like Social Security and Medicare. And if people end up starving in the the street or the nation collapses - well, that’s better than the utter evil of _socialism_. What a complete load of bullshit. Do you continually spend more than you make? How can a government do this continually? The answer is it can’t be done. The results are clearly seen in the newspaper. The UK is eliminating hundreds of thousands of jobs. They CAN’T AFFORD to pay for them. Social security programs are unfunded in many countries. They CAN’T AFFORD the packages voted into practice. They are nothing but government ponzi schemes. It’s 2nd grade math that seems to allude every politician on the planet. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/173 "2010-12-16T19:54:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s 2nd grade math that seems to allude every politician on the planet. What in the name of all that is Holy does this mean? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/174 "2010-12-16T19:58:05Z")
Really? You think 2nd-graders get macroeconomics? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/175 "2010-12-16T20:02:29Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Not wanting to continue flogging horse that has already been flogged to death on this board, but you really should check out some of the comments on that blog post to get an idea of the context of those claims. As the cliché goes, there’s “lies, damned lies and statistics”. There’s plenty to learn in those comments. F’rinstance, I learned that I am required by law to get a yearly physical. I will assume that the rest of the facts supporting the inadequate US health care system arise from the same well of stupidity as that little factoid. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/176 "2010-12-16T20:07:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What a complete load of bullshit. Do you continually spend more than you make? How can a government do this continually? The answer is it can’t be done. The results are clearly seen in the newspaper. The UK is eliminating hundreds of thousands of jobs. They CAN’T AFFORD to pay for them. Social security programs are unfunded in many countries. They CAN’T AFFORD the packages voted into practice. They are nothing but government ponzi schemes. It’s 2nd grade math that seems to allude every politician on the planet. Ummmm…exactly. Way to miss the point. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/177 "2010-12-16T20:22:45Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Ummmm…exactly. Way to miss the point. I haven’t missed a goddamn thing. This has been brewing for years and it was upfront and obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/178 "2010-12-16T20:26:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I haven’t missed a goddamn thing. This has been brewing for years and it was upfront and obvious. The point is that some – but not all – conservatives do not mind or even warmly support the fatal combination of increased spending and low taxes not despite – but because – of the fact that it will eventually lead to a debt crisis. So pointing out that govenment expenditures cannot exceed revenues is correct but does not add to the conversation. The theory of “starving the beast” entails supporting exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/179 "2010-12-16T20:39:19Z")
> [@villa](#): > > What in the name of all that is Holy does this mean? No need to go that high up, he meant to say “elude”. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221/180 "2010-12-16T20:50:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No need to go that high up, he meant to say “elude”. Oh. That kind of makes sense now. Still incorrect, but at least understandable when, you know, the actual correct words are used. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-liberalism-dying-worldwide/564221.md?page=10)