# Is Libertarian all right? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 16, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852 "2003-10-16T19:56:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/41 "2003-10-17T11:53:39Z")
Objection! I haven’t claimed **Libertarian** is mentally ill. I’ve claimed he’s an attention-whoring pseudo-intellectual whose ability to parrot philosophical arguments far outstrips his capacity to understand them. There is a significant difference. Unless, of course, being an attention-whoring pseudo-intellectual whose ability to parrot philosophical arguments far outstrips his capacity to understand them is introduced to the DSM, and we all pray it will. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/42 "2003-10-17T12:03:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > **Bursting the bubble of dyed-in-the-wool atheists who think that their beliefs are some kind of universal “default” which only the credulous and unsophisticated stray far from.** Okay, _if_ I identified to a considerable degree with this description, where could I go to get my bubble burst? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/43 "2003-10-17T12:11:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Unless, of course, being an attention-whoring pseudo-intellectual whose ability to parrot philosophical arguments far outstrips his capacity to understand them is introduced to the DSM, and we all pray it will. \*\* Coz that’d take care of you, too. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/44 "2003-10-17T12:11:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\*How about this: The mere fact that you refer to religious nutjobs implies that they are non-identical, thus implying that to the speaker, religious and nutjob overlap only in specific areas. \*\* A noble attempt, Robert, but missing the point. Can you convince me (or even yourself) that such a discussion would fly for any arbitrary group of nutjobs? In the thread where Lynn admonished Dogface for “hate speech”, he bore his rebuke on account of overlapping thuggery with Islam. I have referenced the neo-Nazi Stormfront boards as an example because there, there are numerous ongoing discussions about how stupid, pathetic, and nutjobbish people are. As it happens, stupid overlaps with liberals, Jews, blacks, Muslims, and gays. Religion is a forbidden topic there. The thread is saying let’s look at people of faith and, from that group, showcase those who merit the most ridicule. Only a twisted rationale would allow that that is not bigotry against a particular class of people. Why not have a discussion about the overlap of stupidity with wherever the chips fall? But as it is, even if your nominee is the stupidest person on earth, he will not qualify for nomination unless he is religious. * * * Desmo I cannot help in which thread you staked your claim. You say here: > [@](#): > > And I didn’t claim responsibility for starting it… You said there: > [@](#): > > In that thread, it was me [sic] that [sic] first raised the subject [of taking your meds] Therefore, you are lying either here or there. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/45 "2003-10-17T12:21:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay, if I identified to a considerable degree with this description, where could I go to get my bubble burst? If you are asking for a specific example, I think the way he dealt with [this knobhead](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=152581) was truly masterful. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/46 "2003-10-17T12:31:10Z")
I think it’s quite clear that **Libertarian** is suffering from an acute case of _demonic possesion_. And, as we all know – or should, anyway. It’s important. – Satan’s immune to antibiotics. So, **Lib** , should contact the fine folk at [**The Vatican**](http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9901/26/exorcism/), who have, coincidentally, recently updated their exorcism erm…therapy? Presumably, spinning heads and green vomit are a thing of the past. Best of luck. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/47 "2003-10-17T12:39:49Z")
What’s the problem with having the thread open to religious nutjobs as well as non-religious nutjobs? Can’t we have a little equal opportunity nutjob jabs? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/48 "2003-10-17T13:03:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **Questioning an opponent’s sanity or mental fitness in order to make a point is an age-old rhetorical vice and logical fallacy. It’s a special ad-hominem designed to distract an audience and reproject an argument, so I’m not paying any attention to the taunting from Daniel, Coldfire, Vorlon, and the like.** On the contrary, it’s not taunting; you are, as usual, misrepresenting your opponents. I don’t think you’re bonkers. I think you’re making a rational, deliberate choice to be a deceitful, hijacking jerk. However, given other people’s concerns, I decided to offer you the opportunity to give us another explanation for your execrable behavior. Reread my OP. > [@](#): > > The only thing I really care to say here in defense of myself is that I believe that I have consistently demonstrated a willingness to listen to reason and admit error. One swallow does not make a spring, **Libertarian**. You are more consistently wed to intellectually bankrupt arguments than just about anyone else on these boards, in my experience. The difference between you and most other people is that you’re adept at couching your stubborness in abstruse language, inflating your appearance of intellectualism. > [@](#): > > If you want to convince me that the thread about religious nutjobs is not a smear on people of faith in general, with its onerous requirement that the nutjobs **BE** people of faith, then you may do so by making a reasonable argument. When I see one, I’ll admit my error, change my mind, and apologize as appropriate. This is a lie, frankly; several people have made several reasonable arguments, and you’ve ignored them. Except for one time, when you said, may I quote, > [@](#): > > Fair enough. I do indeed see the difference you’re explaining, and I’ll leave you alone now. I thought it was important to make the point that people don’t need religion to be nutjobs and — more importantly — not every religious person is a nutjob. But in case you read only every third post or something, and missed all the ones making this point, I’ll refer you to my post above, responding to **Minty Green** , in which I lay out my reasons for believing it’s okay to make fun of people who are nutjobs because of their religious beliefs and actions – in other words, religious nutjobs. It’s obviously not the same as making fun of “black nutjobs,” since being black is neither a belief nor an action. Same thing with “Jewish nutjobs”, although a thread about (for example) the kinds of Jews who would assassinate Yitzak Rabin would be perfectly fine by my standard – that’s a particular subset of nutjobbery and as such is worthy of discussion. As I stated before, discussion of gay nutjobs might be reasonable, as long as you were talking about people whose nutjobbery were particularly related to their gayness – a guy, for example, who believed they had a divine mission to fuck as many straight boys as possible. A thread on “straight nutjobs”, dealing with straight guys who thought that [gay men eat feces and human blood](http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/hatespeech/cameron.html), wouldn’t bother me in the least. I slightly disagree with people who refer you to Venn diagrams: it’s not enough that there be an overlap between two groups for such a thread to be appropriate. If that was enough, a thread on black nutjobs would be appropriate. What’s required is that the adjective describe the **nature** of the nutjobbery. A person who is both a nutjob and left-handed is not particularly remarkable, and if you bring up their left-handedness in discussing their craziness, I’m gonna suspect that you’ve got something against southpaws. But if this guy is convinced that left-handed people are God’s Chosen Children and has started a cult dedicated to rounding up and imprisoning all right-handed people, please feel free to start a thread called “Left-handed nutjob.” Surely if you squint you can see the difference. > [@](#): > > But don’t do it by calling me crazy or by pretending that my argument is so bizarre that I must have fallen off the deep end. Do it with logic and reason. Your argument IS really bizarre. Near as I can tell, you’re just being an asshole. I’d love for you to show me otherwise. Daniel Incidentally, Lib, I’m not obsessed with you in the least. Don’t flatter yourself, and quit lying about me. As **Gyrate** pointed out, I started this thread to try to quit your hijack in the other thread, after all my other attempts to get you to quit your hijack failed. What I am is perfectly fed up with your desperate desire to be a martyr in every situation possible, with your obnoxious, incoherent, tilting-at-windmills crusade to uncover religious bigotry where no such bigotry exists. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/49 "2003-10-17T13:13:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*What’s the problem with having the thread open to religious nutjobs as well as non-religious nutjobs? > > Can’t we have a little equal opportunity nutjob jabs? \*\* **Meatros** , do you see the “New Thread” button at the top of your screen? If you click on it, you can create a new thread devoted entirely to non-religious nutjobs, or to nutjobs whose nutjobbery is unrelated to their faith. It’s fun and easy! Equal opportunity indeed. Is a thread on Hamas bigoted because it precludes discussion of the IRA? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/50 "2003-10-17T13:24:39Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Libertarian_ > \*\*Desmo > > I cannot help in which thread you staked your claim. You say here:\*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > And I didn’t claim responsibility for starting it… > > **You said there:** > > > [@](#): > > > > In that thread, it was me [sic] that [sic] first raised the subject [of taking your meds] > > **Therefore, you are lying either here or there.** Let me set out explicitly which threads I’m talking about, and the sequence of events in each of them. From the thread [manhattan & Gaudere sitting on a tree. . .](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=217245&pagenumber=2) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\ ***Lib** apparently has a problem with moderators in general. > > **Lib** has also, apparently, stopped taking his medication. Again. \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > > **Lib** apparently has a problem with moderators in general. > > > > **Lib** has also, apparently, stopped taking his medication. Again. > > **Thanks, Lynn.** > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Weird With Words_ > **Am I missing something here? Or is this as much of a non-sequitor as it seems?** > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by xenophon41_ > \*\*WWW, Lib’s comment was directed at Lynn for inaugurating the latest round of that particular rhetorical gambit. Although Lynn’s original remark was (I believe) offered sincerely out of friendly concern, the comment has since been used as a barb and a put-down. > > FWIW, Lib, I look back fondly on many of our past civil, sane and stimulating discussions, and look forward to having some more just like 'em at some point.\*\* > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Desmostylus_ > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Libertarian_ > > Thanks, Lynn. > > **That’s a bit unfair to Lynn. In that thread, it was me that first raised the subject:** > > > [@](#): > > > > Now, my mind reading skills. **Lib** is thinking: > > > > “Musn’t take pills: Doctor is evil. SDMB: Liberal Communist Nazis. Oooh, colors! Must resist mind control. Aluminum foil. QANTAS.” Now, of course, when I said “that thread”, I was referring to [Hate speech and the SDMB](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=216078), in which I said: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Desmostylus_ > \*\*Now, my mind reading skills. Lib is thinking: > > “Musn’t take pills: Doctor is evil. SDMB: Liberal Communist Nazis. Oooh, colors! Must resist mind control. Aluminum foil. QANTAS.”\*\* Later in that same thread, **Lynn** said: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Lynn Bodoni_ > \*\*Libertarian, I find your arguments/complaints incredibly disingenous and hypocritical. As I understand libertarianism, a TRUE believer would go find a MB more to his liking, or go found one. It’s clear to me that you do not find the Straight Dope properly respectful of Christians, or of libertarians. That’s not our goal, and never has been. I don’t believe that ANYTHING less that a statement that “Jesus Christ is Lord” would truly please you in the matters touching on religion. That’s NOT gonna happen. Get over it… > > And on a personal note, go get your meds adjusted. This is not an insult. I’ve had to have MY meds adjusted from time to time, so I know what it’s like. > \*\* I ain’t lying. And there really seems to be something wrong with you. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/51 "2003-10-17T14:55:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **Questioning an opponent’s sanity or mental fitness in order to make a point is an age-old rhetorical vice and logical fallacy. It’s a special ad-hominem designed to distract an audience and reproject an argument, so I’m not paying any attention to the taunting from Daniel, Coldfire, Vorlon, and the like.** Huh. I was asking a question out of concern, and did not imply that you were out of your mind, or anything of the sort. But I guess I can’t stop you if you want to think of me as an asshole. > [@](#): > > **Dopers are smart enough to know what’s going on with that.** Well, _some_ are. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/52 "2003-10-17T16:08:41Z")
Coldie I don’t think you’re an asshole, so don’t attempt to pin that on me, please. I think you’re not on my side, certainly. And I think that, by your participation, you’ve given tacit consent to bash people of faith in other threads and, with your latest post, more fuel for the Lib bashers in this thread. But that in and of itself does not make you an asshole. The question you asked was whether I was all right, and that you had noticed that my posts were strange lately. That is indeed an implication of the sort. If I opened a thread on atheist nutjobs, would you come in and participate with witty one-liners that indicate your tolerance of and pleasure with the topic? If someone challenged me for doing so, would you make it a point to ask them publically if they’re all right? And if I pitted the challenger, would you drop into my thread to further fuel the pile-on from a few snitty Christians? * * * Desmo So then, you did in fact proudly proclaim that you started the take-your-meds debacle: > [@](#): > > Musn’t take pills: Doctor is evil. Thanks for doing the research. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/53 "2003-10-17T16:17:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*Coz that’d take care of you, too. \*\* Nonsense. My ability to parrot philosophical arguments is well within my understanding of them. Seriously, I was shocked (and faintly pleased) to see that **Libertarian** had actually contributed some useful links in a few threads over the past few weeks. My opinion of him was actually beginning to rise a bit. Then he posted to the Nutjob thread, and it crashed right back down. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/54 "2003-10-17T16:17:52Z")
**Lib** , do you genuinely believe I would have a problem with a thread on atheist nutjobs? Yes or no, please. Near as I can tell, you’re continuing to ignore any arguments against your point, so that you can claim no such arguments are being made. Despicable. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/55 "2003-10-17T16:22:49Z")
**Lib** , I read that four times, and I still don’t get it. I’m certainly not “on your side” with regard to your comments in the Religious Nutjob thread, but my question _was_ caused by genuine concern. And when I note your posts as of late have been strange, it obviously means “out of character”, not “insane”. I’ve given “tacit consent to bash people of faith in other threads”? What, other than the Religious _Nutjob_ one, where the bashees had to be nutjobs _and_ religious? Where else do I show “tacit consent” to bashing people of faith? **Lib** , I submit that you might be a tad too sensitive when it comes to people making fun of obvious fruitloops who _happen_ to be of the Christian variety. We bash idiots all the time here at the Straight Dope, from moon hoax conspiracy nuts, to foaming-at-the-mouth Bush-haters, to extreme right-wing militant assholes. The mere fact that _one_ thread tried to comprise all of the bashfests directed at Fred Phelps and the like, doesn’t mean that the _only_ nutjobs being bashed at the SDMB are Christian ones. Time to step away from the keyboard and take a deep breath or two, methinks. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/56 "2003-10-17T16:36:45Z")
Coldie [This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=217918), where you posted a drive-by witty one-liner, is nothing more than a spawn of the other one. And what, exactly, is it that you’re concerned about? What is my ordinary character that you believe I was out of? * * * Daniel Ignoring your arguments? I’m in your thread! 😃 Did you see my post on page 1? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/57 "2003-10-17T16:38:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*If I opened a thread on atheist nutjobs, would you come in and participate with witty one-liners that indicate your tolerance of and pleasure with the topic? \*\* I’m an atheist, and I _started_ a thread on what a nutjob Madalyn Murray O’Hair was. Of course, according to you, all I _ever_ do is bash religion . . . ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/58 "2003-10-17T17:04:00Z")
Actually, Eve, my question to Coldie wasn’t about whom you’ve bashed. But thanks for stopping by to express your admiration for people of faith. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/59 "2003-10-17T17:05:32Z")
Yes, Lib, I saw your post on page one. It consisted of: 1. A misrepresentation of why this thread exists. 2. An irrelevant point about how you’ve admitted you were wrong before. 3. A claim that when you see a reasonable argument, you’ll admit your error – as near as I can tell, a lie. Especially since you do nothing to address the actual arguments made. 4. Claims that you’re unlikely to fly off the handle again. Color me skeptical. 5. Implications that people are trying to bully you into changing your mind. What was noticeably absent was any response to the arguments put forward. That’s one example of your deceit in this matter. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/60 "2003-10-17T17:21:10Z")
Lib: I give up. There is obviously no point to carry this any further, as you don’t see my motivations as benign. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852.md?page=4)