# Is Libertarian all right? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 16, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852 "2003-10-16T19:56:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/81 "2003-10-18T02:16:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadfly \* > \*\* > Explain in language that a gadfry could understand, please. \*\* We are not meant to understand, merely to bear witness… ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/82 "2003-10-18T02:20:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*We are not meant to understand, merely to bear witness… \*\* Which leads me to ask: **Scylla** , are you all right? ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/83 "2003-10-18T02:20:21Z")
Bear witness to Libertarian’s consistently contrary attitude, and the tendency for his posts to degrade into angry, hair-shirted spluttering? I think I’ll go eat some crumpets instead. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/84 "2003-10-18T02:32:44Z")
I can’t even tell who’s being ironic any more. Not that my irony-detector was all that great at the best of times, but still – this is downright surreal. This frail clown-hero: he’s not wearing a matador costume made of garishly dyed velvet, is he? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/85 "2003-10-18T02:32:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\*Which leads me to ask: **Scylla** , are you all right? \*\* You might as well ask is a Waterfall allright? Is a comet streaking across the night sky copacetic? Many leagues past wast it that I crossed beyond the vail of okey-dokeyality, and dipped my glass into the spring of ultimate truth in the meadow of purity that resides behind the 7-11 of the soul to return my draught into your realm of mediocrity. Having sojourned yonder would you sup from the cup I offer? I am he that dares drink, who knows that to drink is to die yet who dares drink on, am I. ---
**Author:** ![Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soul_brother_number_two/32/3515_2.png) [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soul_Brother_Number_Two)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/86 "2003-10-18T02:48:39Z")
I would like some crumpets as well. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/87 "2003-10-18T03:05:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*You might as well ask is a Waterfall allright? > > Is a comet streaking across the night sky copacetic? > > Many leagues past wast it that I crossed beyond the vail of okey-dokeyality, and dipped my glass into the spring of ultimate truth in the meadow of purity that resides behind the 7-11 of the soul to return my draught into your realm of mediocrity. > > Having sojourned yonder would you sup from the cup I offer? > > I am he that dares drink, who knows that to drink is to die yet who dares drink on, am I. \*\* Ahh, who gives a damn? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/88 "2003-10-18T03:08:15Z")
**Lib** , So glad to hear you are well. **Scylla** , I take back half the mean things I ever said about you, man! Tris ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/89 "2003-10-18T03:12:47Z")
Oh, Lord. **Scylla** has been possessed by the vengeful spirit of Mango. [chorus]: “My Mango?!” Yes, he of the day-glow shorts has returned from beyond syndication to claim the souls of the unjust! Tremble, SDMB, tremble! ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/90 "2003-10-18T03:59:47Z")
Scylla, you’re brilliant. I’ll even forgive you for the root beer all over my keyboard. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/91 "2003-10-18T09:45:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Many leagues past wast it that I crossed beyond the vail of okey-dokeyality, and dipped my glass into the spring of ultimate truth in the meadow of purity that resides behind the 7-11 of the soul to return my draught into your realm of mediocrity. \*\* And didst thou drain the Big Gulp of Enlightenment? ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/92 "2003-10-18T11:42:17Z")
Daniel: > [@](#): > > The fact that you’re able to excerpt from the OP a section that doesn’t mention religion is irrelevant. You gotta take the whole shebang in context to provide proper analysis. Let’s look at the OP. It says: “Lebon Award would be Nobel backwards. Nobel awards are for people(s) advancing the human race, Lebon Awards are for those who are trying to desperately set humanity back through their uneducated, poorly -if-at all- researched diatribe, fear and ignorance mongerers and general hatred towards humankind.” Do you honestly not see the problem here? By saying the award is for uneducated, poor research using, ignorance mongering, humanity haters, with the title saying that it is only for religious people, there is a clear implication: Only religious people can fall under this category. This is clearly not true of course. And I think that you would see the problem immediately if the thread was about athiests. In fact, if I started a thread on athiest nutjobs, and described the award as this one was described, I would HOPE that someone would call me on it. Your precious thread was about to turn into a perfect breeding ground for ignorance and bias… instead of attacking Lib, you should be thanking him. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/93 "2003-10-18T11:49:49Z")
Daniel: > [@](#): > > The fact that you’re able to excerpt from the OP a section that doesn’t mention religion is irrelevant. You gotta take the whole shebang in context to provide proper analysis. Let’s look at the OP. It says: “Lebon Award would be Nobel backwards. Nobel awards are for people(s) advancing the human race, Lebon Awards are for those who are trying to desperately set humanity back through their uneducated, poorly -if-at all- researched diatribe, fear and ignorance mongerers and general hatred towards humankind.” Do you honestly not see the problem here? By saying the award is for uneducated, poor research using, ignorance mongering, humanity haters, with the title saying that it is only for religious people, there is a clear implication: Only religious people can fall under this category. This is clearly not true of course. And I think that you would see the problem immediately if the thread was about athiests. In fact, if I started a thread on athiest nutjobs, and described the award as this one was described, I would HOPE that someone would call me on it. Your precious thread was about to turn into a perfect breeding ground for ignorance and bias… instead of attacking Lib, you should be thanking him. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/94 "2003-10-18T13:36:08Z")
First, **Nightime** , it wasn’t my thread. Second, as I’ve stated over and over, I would not have a problem with a thread on atheist nutjobs that set up a similar award tailored to the stupidity that nutjob atheists tend to have. I don’t think the Lebon award properly describes things like suing to have a cross removed from a tower, because the cross discriminates against atheists. How is that mongering fear or ignorance, hatred of humanity? It’s clearly choosing a super-petty battle to fight, but that’s not what the Lebon award was about. Set up an award devoted to people that make mountains out of molehills, and list some atheist picking on a Jewish celebratory song in his daughter’s choir, and you’re doing fine threadwise. And if I come into the thread and mention General Boykin and his “my god is bigger than your god” shit, then I’ll be hijacking your thread. There may be an implication, if you squint real hard, that only religious people monger ignorance and fear. I don’t think that was at all the point of the thread, nor do I think **Shirley Ujest** would agree with that implication, nor do I think anyone reading the thread would agree with that implication – the twentieth century pretty much knocked that idea out of the running. But if you squint, you can maybe come up with that implication. And if it was incredibly important to point out that this obviously false implication is false, lib could have made a short post to point it out and backed off. Instead, he made a long, oblique, snarky post, followed it up with a series of insulting content-free posts, and generally behaved like an ass. He has a history of doing this in any thread that makes fun of any religious person. It’s dreadfully annoying, and I took him up on it in that thread because I hoped to convince him to knock it off once and for all. Sadly, I failed, and in the process fed him martyr complex and exacerbated his hijack. For that, I apologize: when confronted with dishonesty and hypocrisy like his, I need to learn to rise above it. I’ll try to be better at that in the future. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/95 "2003-10-18T17:31:38Z")
> [@](#): > > There may be an implication, if you squint real hard, that only religious people monger ignorance and fear. I don’t think that was at all the point of the thread, nor do I think Shirley Ujest would agree with that implication, nor do I think anyone reading the thread would agree with that implication I don’t know about that. Lobsang, for one, said that “It didn’t look like that to me” when Libertarian asked if the thread was only to bash religious people. It was only after a quote saying that, indeed, only religious people were to be attacked in the thread, that Lobsang realized the true purpose of the thread. “Lebon Award would be Nobel backwards. Nobel awards are for people(s) advancing the human race, Lebon Awards are for those who are trying to desperately set humanity back through their uneducated, poorly -if-at all- researched diatribe, fear and ignorance mongerers and general hatred towards humankind.” To use this description, and then only allow religious people to nominated, IS insulting. More than a few people find it insulting, and with good reason. Whether or not you would care if the same thing was done to a different group than religious people is irrelevant. It would be wrong if it was done to athiests too. > [@](#): > > Instead, he made a long, oblique, snarky post, followed it up with a series of insulting content-free posts, and generally behaved like an ass. Libertarian was not the only one to question the combination of the description of the award, and the restriction to religious people. Several people were confused or concerned about it. Myself, Apos, Lib, Lobsang, and probably more. Therefore his posts were quite relevant, and the thread only really started going downhill after he was attacked. Finally, I think you have made some good points suggesting that in _theory_ it is possible to have a good thread on religious nutjobs. But, in _practice_, this was certainly not going to be that thread. Starting with the extremely poorly written OP, which decribed the award using religion-neutral terms such as ignorance and hatred, and indeed painted the award as the opposite of the nobel, another religion-neutral award. And then only allowed religious people to be nominated, as though religious people were the only ones who could be capable of ignorance or hatred. Again, if someone said “This award is the opposite of the nobel - it is for people who set humanity back. Only athiests can get this award.” I would object to that just as much as this. Can you really not see the problem there? And then you have people saying things like “I think the Pope making the No Condom-HIV-STD statement was clearly insane” with no cites to back it up. Would it really be better for such comments to pass unchecked, or indeed with applause? In practice, the thread was destined to be a place to promote ignorance, to innacurately bash religious people without evidence, and to be applauded for this by like-minded individuals with no fear of getting called on it or of seeing someone with your own beliefs mocked in the same way. In practice, the standards were so low for calling someone a nutjob, and the audience so enthusiastic, that I do think the thread crossed the line. I think in practice it was a place to bash people for being religious. I won’t argue that it is impossible for an ideal “religious nutjobs”, “jewish nutjobs”, “athiest nutjobs”, etc, thread to exist. But as this thread was _far_ from the ideal, it is a good thing Lib called you on it. If nobody had said anything, far more ignorance and prejudice would have been born in that thread. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/96 "2003-10-18T17:49:50Z")
**Nightime** , if Lib were arguing with the grace and honesty and lack of _ad hominems_ you’re using, I wouldn’t be disgusted at all with him. In fact, you’re close to convincing me there was a problem in the OP that I hadn’t seen previously. However, I don’t think **Lobsang’s** statement meant what you’re suggesting: I read it as his saying that the thread wasn’t bashing people of faith, but rather people whose specific faith made them nutjobs. That’s how I read the OP, and how many other people read the OP. If Lib had come into the thread with atheists who were mongering fear and hatred, then he would’ve had a point. Instead, he brought in atheists who were afflicted with the same sort of overblown persecution martyr complex from which he himself suffers. I will say this, on reflection, however: the OP’s text would have been better served by stating what seemed obvious, that the thread was looking at cases in which religious beliefs led to fear and hate-mongering, and that the Lebon awards were for such cases. Again, I think that’s perfectly fair, and I would think it perfectly fair if the Lebon awards were defined for any other similarly narrow group. I appreciate your addressing the arguments. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/97 "2003-10-18T17:53:51Z")
Two more points: 1. Again, it wasn’t my thread. I have no ownership of it. 2. I realize that by talking about Lib in the third person, I’m not really “done with him,” like I said I’d be. For my own peace of mind, I won’t discuss him or his behavior any more, although I’m happy to continue discussing the propriety of the previous thread. If libertarian starts behaving like a decent, honest human being again, I’ll be happy to resume conversation with and about him, but not until. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/98 "2003-10-18T18:22:49Z")
> [@](#): > > However, I don’t think Lobsang’s statement meant what you’re suggesting: I read it as his saying that the thread wasn’t bashing people of faith, but rather people whose specific faith made them nutjobs. Nope, Lobsang was unaware that being religious was a specific requirement for the award. Lobsang: It didn’t look like that to me. Lib: (quoting) “…the other ones seen to lack one specific requirement for this award - they’re not religious.” Lobsang: oh. nitpick: I didn’t say it. Someone else did. > [@](#): > > I will say this, on reflection, however: the OP’s text would have been better served by stating what seemed obvious, that the thread was looking at cases in which religious beliefs led to fear and hate-mongering, and that the Lebon awards were for such cases. I don’t think it is just lack of clarity that was the problem. There were a few people who were understandably confused by the description of the award, and the restriction to religious people. I understood what was wanted, but still found the OP insulting. The description of the award, even if it added “only for religious people” to be clear, would still be offensive. What if I said “This is the Ymedaca award, the opposite of the Academy award. It is for people who are extremely poor actors. Only jews can be nominated for this award.” See the problem? Even though it is quite clear what I want, it is still insulting. The academy awards are not based on religion, so why would their opposite be based on religion? (Actually, that does make a certain sense, but you get the point) > [@](#): > > If Lib had come into the thread with atheists who were mongering fear and hatred, then he would’ve had a point. Well, certainly his choices are arguable. But then, I can argue with some of the other choices as well, even those which are of religious people. I would say that Lib’s Rob Sherman mongers more ignorance and tries to set back humanity more than some of the religious choices. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/99 "2003-10-18T18:30:16Z")
**Nightime** , I don’t think that Jewish actors are bad actors in any distinct fashion related to their Jewishness; do you? However, I DO think that the hatred mongered by religious nutjobs has a flavor to it distinct from the hatred mongered by (for example) communists. Do you? Because there’s a relevant difference between religious nutjobbery and nonreligious nutjobbery, I think such a thread is appropriate. The only problem in the OP that I see is in the definition of the Lebon awards: Shirley would have been better off acknowledging the unique flavor of religious nutjobbery in her OP. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852/100 "2003-10-18T18:34:13Z")
I’ll also say that it’s perfectly appropriate to have a thread devoted to, say, the St. Theresa Awards, for people whose devotion to others and self-sacrifice serves as an inspiration to us all; only Catholics are eligible. As long as the religious restriction has something to do with the matter at hand, it’s not a problem for me. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarian-all-right/207852.md?page=6)