# Is libertarianism dead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820 "2006-08-22T23:01:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/1 "2006-08-22T23:01:26Z")
In a [recent article](http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&DocID=3261) in the _Financial Times,_ Michael Lind argues libertarianism (small “l” is appropriate here as the Libertarian Party has had practically nothing to do with the story of successful libertarian politics to date) is now dead as a vital political force: > [@](#): > > In the mid-20th century, welfare-statism was the “third way” between democratic socialism on the left and big-government conservatism that accepted the welfare state but sought to limit its costs. But in the 1970s and 1980s, the political spectrum shifted to the right. Not only communism but also democratic socialism vanished as plausible options because people no longer believed that the nationalisation of whole economies made any sense. At the same time, moderate conservatives who had made their peace with the welfare state were outflanked on the right by the radical libertarians. > > Suddenly the former political “centre,” social democratic welfare-state capitalism, was redefined as the “left” and the former “right”, big-government conservatism, was now considered the “centre.” In the 1990s, the term “third way” meant, not Swedish social democracy, but the pro-market “neo-liberalism” of Bill Clinton and Tony Blair, which would have been considered moderate conservatism in the 1950s. In the US, the Democratic Leadership Council echoed the free-market, small-government rhetoric of the libertarian radicals. “The era of big government is over,” Mr. Clinton declared. But he spoke too soon. In the past decade, the US public has rejected every element of the libertarian counter-revolution. The first proposal voters rejected was the privatisation of schooling. Because US education policy is dominated by states and cities, this issue was fought at the local level. It turned out that most conservative Republicans as well as Democrats were content with their suburban public schools. Again and again, voucher proposals went down to defeat. > > \ > > For nearly a decade, the Republican party has controlled Washington and most state legislatures. And yet every big proposal of the libertarians has been rejected by the public and their elected representatives. Their only temporary achievement has been tax cuts, which are likely to be rolled back at least in part to reduce the deficit in the years ahead. With the disappearance as a significant force of the libertarian right, the centre of gravity inevitably will shift somewhat left in matters of political economy. But we will not see a restoration of the mid-20th century pattern because there will be no revival of the socialist left. The demise of both socialism and libertarianism pretty much limits the field to moderate social democracy and big-government conservatism. The limitation of options on the horizontal left-right spectrum is accompanied, however, by a growing vertical, top-bottom divide between an elite committed to globalisation and mass immigration and a populist, nationalist majority. If this replaces the older horizontal left-right divide, then we may see a third, “third way” one which positions itself between the crudest forms of populism and utopian forms of transnationalism. Is this true? And what possibilities do you see for a new “third way”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/2 "2006-08-22T23:04:56Z")
Small “l” libertarianism is alive and well-- on this MB. 😃 Don’t worry, though. You, for one, will soon welcome your new libertarian overlords! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/3 "2006-08-22T23:29:29Z")
Feh. Libertarianism is an intellectual construct, as divorced from human reality as Marxism. It is Anarchy Lite, but cleaned up and scrubbed of all lefty-radical odors, made presentable so you can introduce it to your Mom without her fainting dead away. The only just form of government is that which depends entirely on the will of the governed. That will is the only governing principle required or desireable. It is the whole of Political Science. What works today is true, what works tomorrow will be true, what worked yesterday is junk. He who believes that and works for that is my comrade, he that does not remains to be enlightened. Present company excepted, it goes without saying. Of such august company, one would not presume. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/4 "2006-08-23T01:13:39Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] The only just form of government is that which depends entirely on the will of the governed. That will is the only governing principle required or desireable. [/QUOTE] So, the Iraq War was a just war, and disallowing SSM is a just legal position? I’m glad we’re finally in agreement on those two issues. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/5 "2006-08-23T01:57:17Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Small “l” libertarianism is alive and well-- on this MB. 😃 [/QUOTE] [shrug] Socialism too, but that’s nor here nor there. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/6 "2006-08-23T02:34:39Z")
Was libertarianism ever alive? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/7 "2006-08-23T02:37:34Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Don’t worry, though. You, for one, will soon welcome your new libertarian overlords! [/QUOTE] Fortunately, there won’t be very many of them. So you won’t have to learn a lot of names or anything. I agree that it’s hopeless to wish for small government at this point. People will never consent to having their benefits taken away, and on the federal level, it appears that small-government Republicans have gone extinct. The options, to put it in an intentionally stereotyped way, are tax-and-spend Democrats and tax-cut-and-spend Republicans. I do think we could have a government that is less active in trying to legislate people’s values, and that’s what I would like the most. Perhaps we’ll see a trend in that direction over the next few years, since people seemed fed up with the religious right - but then again, gay marriage ain’t exactly popular. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/8 "2006-08-23T02:43:54Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Was libertarianism ever alive? [/QUOTE] Every president from Reagan to W was elected on some kind of “smaller government” platform. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/9 "2006-08-23T02:45:45Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Every president from Reagan to W was elected on some kind of “smaller government” platform. [/QUOTE] And the only one in all that time who ever did anything about it was the lone Democrat… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/10 "2006-08-23T02:50:13Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] And the only one in all that time who ever did anything about it was the lone Democrat… [/QUOTE] Not quite. Slower growth of government does not equal smaller government. But you’re correct in that the growth of government was greater under the recent Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![username\_taken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/c0e974/32.png) [@username\_taken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/username_taken)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/11 "2006-08-23T03:36:56Z")
Meh. Butterflies could fly out of everyone’s butts, and so what? Is any political ideal dead? I say it is when it is finally able to exist without any protagonist. We humans love our struggles. These days I’m an independent who has always voted Republican and now voting Democrat. I never thought the day would come, then the Dems laid down like weak dogs and the Reps came to power, then got fat and dumb on it. Yep, no struggle makes us antsy for action. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/12 "2006-08-23T04:17:34Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] I agree that it’s hopeless to wish for small government at this point. [/QUOTE] Lind’s point is that it’s hopeless **at any time in the foreseeable future.** That as a serious political option in the U.S. (or, implicitly, other developed nations), even moderate libertarianism as as dead as even democratic socialism – because the people don’t want it. But what about the “third third way”? Will that emerge? What will it be like if it does? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/13 "2006-08-23T04:19:15Z")
[QUOTE=username\_taken] These days I’m an independent who has always voted Republican and now voting Democrat. [/QUOTE] In both cases, why? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/14 "2006-08-23T04:27:32Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Lind’s point is that it’s hopeless **at any time in the foreseeable future.** That as a serious political option in the U.S. (or, implicitly, other developed nations), even moderate libertarianism as as dead as even democratic socialism – because the people don’t want it. [/quote] That’s what I was saying. Maybe I put “at this point” in the wrong place. > [@](#): > > But what about the “third third way”? Will that emerge? What will it be like if it does? I suppose the easiest way is if people decide they are paying too much for public services and just can’t afford the taxes. Perhaps that will happen more and more as the Baby Boomers age. In theory, maybe they won’t want to pay for a lot of the services they don’t use (like older people in my area, in demographic terms one of the oldest counties in the US, often complain about having to pay school taxes). Or maybe the younger generation will find supporting the large Boomer generation unwieldy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/15 "2006-08-23T04:48:42Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] I suppose the easiest way is if people decide they are paying too much for public services and just can’t afford the taxes. [/QUOTE] You’re missing the point entirely. The “third way” choice is not as between big government or small, but as between elite globalizers and populist nationalists. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/16 "2006-08-23T04:57:53Z")
Is universal health care socialist? If it could be proven that it increases worker productivity and thereby enriches the ruling class, is it capitalist? Do these sorts of terms have any relevance anymore? Is someone who works to overthrow the ruling class of China a left winger, or a conservative? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/17 "2006-08-23T04:58:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Every president from Reagan to W was elected on some kind of “smaller government” platform. Which hardly qualifies as saying libertarianism was ever a real political program. Libertarianism was a bunch of half-formed principles that never had a chance of forming a coherent whole. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/18 "2006-08-23T05:14:51Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Which hardly qualifies as saying libertarianism was ever a real political program. Libertarianism was a bunch of half-formed principles that never had a chance of forming a coherent whole. [/QUOTE] You’re talking about **radical** libertarianism (Ayn Rand’s Objectivist philosophy, _Reason_ magazine, the [Libertarian Party,](http://www.lp.org/) [L. Neil Smith’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Neil_Smith) utopian/dystopian novels, and all that forgettable noise). Lind’s point is that even **moderate** libertarianism – as a minimal-government tendency within the otherwise highly successful [post-Goldwater American conservative movement,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7530694&postcount=23) which is a very different thing from radical libertarianism – has had its chance and has been definitely and permanently rejected. I would argue that is at least in part because even moderate libertarianism is incompatible with the economic interests of the corporations who **really** drive and own the Republican (and to an only slightly lesser extent the Democratic) Party. Libertarians are hostile in principle to corporate welfare and bailouts, no-bid sweetheart contracts, etc. When Cheney famously declared “government had nothing to do with” his personal business success, he knew quite well he was lying. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/19 "2006-08-23T13:14:00Z")
If you’re talking about keeping government out of our private lives without compelling reason to the contrary, that’s not going to go away nor should it. If you’re talking about “libertopia”, you’re talking about a form of government that has never existed in the history of the planet, nor will it. Except on this message board, libertarians are a fringe group and always will be. I’ve always felt that Libertarians are Republicans that just don’t want the responsibility of actually running things. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/20 "2006-08-23T13:20:04Z")
The author’s reference to “big-government conservatism” is somewhat misleading, because that term generally refers to issues that are not addressed here (the _Financial Times_ article focuses purely on the economic issues for some reason). On the social-issue front, the ideology of “big-government conservatism” has gotten approximately nowhere on its big issues (abortion, censorship, etc). About the only accomplishment it can point to is turning back the Gay Marriage Menace, which is merely holding the _status quo_ for a while against cultural shifts (if the libertarians had done so poorly on their economic issues, they would have merely prevented tax increases, not gotten tax cuts). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820.md?page=2)