# Is libertarianism dead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820 "2006-08-22T23:01:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/41 "2006-08-23T21:53:51Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] The Greens have to have more. And they get about 5-10x more votes in presidential elections. [/QUOTE] Why do they “have to”? I’m fairly sure that Badernik got 400,000 votes (cheesy wiki [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Badnarik)) while David Cobb only recieved 118,000 (cheesy wiki [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cobb)) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/42 "2006-08-23T22:02:17Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] Why do they “have to”? I’m fairly sure that Badernik got 400,000 votes (cheesy wiki [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Badnarik)) while David Cobb only recieved 118,000 (cheesy wiki [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cobb)) [/QUOTE] That’s only because Nader didn’t run as the Green candidate. When he did (in 2000), he got 2.9M votes to Browne’s 0.4M. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/43 "2006-08-23T22:30:35Z")
\*Now \* I remember why I hate Ralph Nader with every fiber of my being! ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/44 "2006-08-23T22:54:57Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] That’s only because Nader didn’t run as the Green candidate. When he did (in 2000), he got 2.9M votes to Browne’s 0.4M. [/QUOTE] “That’s only because…”? C’mon now, you can do better than that. You asserted that the Greens “have to have more” votes than the Libertarians, and then stated that the Greens get 5-10X the votes in “presidential elections”. As far as you’ve shown that is flatly untrue. They got, what? 7.25X the votes in 2000, which is indeed between 5 and 10, but it only happened once. Perot probably got more votes in 92, but his party collapsed as well. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/45 "2006-08-24T01:02:24Z")
> [@](#): > > I have yet to meet a true ideological Libertarian that can have a conversation about the ideological points of Libertariansism that haven’t eventually retreated to one of these tow positions. You forgot Type III: The Abstract Politicians - They’re the ones who are obsessed with the subject of political theory but don’t want to get involved in any political reality. So the Libertarian Party is perfect for them: a political party that’s based entirely on theory and has never won an actual election. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/46 "2006-08-24T03:20:43Z")
Of _course_ it’s dead. It died as soon as I quit being a poor young kid, and became a comfortable middle-class guy, with health insurance and a guaranteed pension. What’s the debate? Unless it’s new legislation on pensions – which is just, like, ANARCHY! ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/47 "2006-08-24T03:25:07Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] You forgot Type III: The Abstract Politicians - They’re the ones who are obsessed with the subject of political theory but don’t want to get involved in any political reality. So the Libertarian Party is perfect for them: a political party that’s based entirely on theory and has never won an actual election. [/QUOTE] This makes me smile in remembrance of P.J. O’Rourke’s description of a guy (from _Modern Manners_), who was **looking for a job stopping nuclear wars**. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/48 "2006-08-24T03:26:13Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] a political party that’s based entirely on theory and has never won an actual election. [/QUOTE] [Don’t forget Oregon!](http://www.lporegon.org/) > [@](#): > > \*\* Libertarian Party of Oregon\*\* > By electing Libertarians to local office Oregonians are learning how well they perform in office. Since 1994, Libertarian candidates have won two-thirds of the local races they have actively campaigned for. Hundreds of thousands of Oregonians are constituents of Libertarian office holders today. On May 17th, local elections were held again. Out of eleven candidates fielded, eight were elected. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/49 "2006-08-24T05:42:08Z")
Okay, but if I was a Libertarian I’d be trying to downplay the fact that the greatest success my party has ever achieved was getting seven people elected to a school board in Oregon. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/50 "2006-08-24T16:28:49Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Was libertarianism ever alive? [/QUOTE] Well, [My Dog Votes Libertarian](https://www.cafepress.com/theevilwriter.70781859), anyway. To be honest, I think there are probably any number of voters like myself, who have some if not many views that line up with libertarianism but never vote that way because there’s zero chance that a libertarian will ever be elected. Even if everyone one of us voted libertarian there still wouldn’t be enough votes to get anyone elected, so it feels like throwing a vote away. I don’t really see this ever changing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/51 "2006-08-25T14:38:56Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 😕 Don’t they? [/QUOTE] No, seriously, **Bobtheoptimist,** how does Lind’s article misrepresent libertarianism? It’s my understanding even moderate libertarians – as well as pseudo-libertarians like W – want to private education and Social Security. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/52 "2006-08-25T15:32:20Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] No, seriously, **Bobtheoptimist,** how does Lind’s article misrepresent libertarianism? It’s my understanding even moderate libertarians – as well as pseudo-libertarians like W – want to private education and Social Security. [/QUOTE] I have trouble taking this thread seriously anymore, but I’ll give it another shot. I made the comment that Lind implied that libertarians want to shut down schools and do away with social security\* and you replied “Don’t they?” No, we do not. (Disregarding fringe members, usually those affiliated with the Libertarian party) School vouchers? You betcha. It’s not just Libertarians that want a shot at a decent education for their kids. I’m not sure if you’ve ever heard this, but a public school education is frequently seen as a joke (I’m citeless at the moment). Social Security privatization - Dubya is not a libertarian and his attempt to do whatever it was he was trying to get done is not a good representation of the Libertarian party (IMHO). The whole point is to simplify and get the gummit OUT of personal choices, not complicate things and increase the government. The misrepresentation comes from comparing the acts of Bush & Co. to the ideals of libertarians. To me it is exactly like saying that the current prescription drug benefits for Medicare recipients are proof the the Democrats are barking up the wrong tree. The President tried it, it sucks and confuses people, so those stupid Dems need to just go away. The article was full of non sequitur and disingenuous comparisons between the current administration and Libertarian ideas. Claiming that it will soon be shown that tax cuts don’t work because this administration has no rational fiscal policy is insulting and… um, something else… > [@](#): > > For nearly a decade, the Republican party has controlled Washington and most state legislatures. And yet every big proposal of the libertarians has been rejected by the public and their elected representatives. Their only temporary achievement has been tax cuts, which are likely to be rolled back at least in part to reduce the deficit in the years ahead. Apparently Mr Lind can’t tell the difference between Republicans and Libertarians. Since we don’t have universal health care, is that proof that the Democrats are done? Would a Republican feel ok with having his/her party judged by the things Clinton did? Read like a Chewbacca defense. \*I’d try to defend that statement, but since you replied so fast with the “don’t they?”, I feel that I was dead on in my assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/53 "2006-08-25T16:02:13Z")
[QUOTE=F. U. Shakespeare] This makes me smile in remembrance of P.J. O’Rourke’s description of a guy (from _Modern Manners_), who was **looking for a job stopping nuclear wars**. [/QUOTE] Hey, I’d take that job. I’ll even refund double my salary ($100k/yr requested) if I fail. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/54 "2006-08-25T16:19:23Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] Apparently Mr Lind can’t tell the difference between Republicans and Libertarians. [/QUOTE] He is not ignoring the difference; quite the reverse. Lind has made the point elsewhere that radical Libertarianism is something fundamentally different from moderate libertarianism – something more revolutionary, IOW. In this article, he is talking about **moderate** libertarians, who work within the Republican Party for the most part; not the **radical** Libertarians of the LP. And his point is that even moderate libertarians have failed to sell their more systemic reform proposals (school vouchers, SS privatization) to the public. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/55 "2006-08-25T16:27:09Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] I have trouble taking this thread seriously anymore, but I’ll give it another shot. [/QUOTE] It’s my experience that it’s almost impossible to have a rational discussion of libertarianism on this board. It quickly descends into absurd sterotyping, strawman arguments, and claims that libertarians are evil. And this thread is supposed to be explicitly about small “l” libertarianism, which makes it even more frustrating. Good luck on your efforts to stay engaged, though. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/56 "2006-08-25T17:00:05Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] He is not ignoring the difference; quite the reverse. Lind has made the point elsewhere that radical Libertarianism is something fundamentally different from moderate libertarianism – something more revolutionary, IOW. In this article, he is talking about **moderate** libertarians, who work within the Republican Party for the most part; not the **radical** Libertarians of the LP. And his point is that even moderate libertarians have failed to sell their more systemic reform proposals (school vouchers, SS privatization) to the public. [/QUOTE] Well, he is free to assert that Bush is acting out libertarian ideals, but I’m going to call bullshit on him. The things that he mentions are just the ones that didn’t pass, and that Bush screwed up anyway. What about allowing the Clinton gun ban to expire? That’s libertarian as all get-out. What about same-sex marriage? Libertarian Abortion rights? Libertarian End government support of big-business? Libertarian That’s just off the top of my head, and we certainly don’t hold exclusive rights to any of those ideas. There are many things we are in favor of that don’t have a lot of public backing, occasionally one gets through that we agree with, but those “Republicans who smoke pot” would have to be pretty baked to propose kicking religion entirely out of government and allow consenting adults to boink however they want. Trying to tie libertarians to republicans demonstrates to me that he doesn’t understand either. “moderate libertarians who work within the Republican party”? I smell a constantly shifting line. Anything a libertarian might agree with that gets smashed down is proposed by these shadow libertarians, anything that passes is obviously a result of the hard work and dedication of our fine public servents? I’ve not read his other article, and based on what I saw in this one I’ve no desire. And **John Mace** , I stayed out of this for as long as possible because I kept reading that this board was chock-full of libertarians… Either they are a lot brighter than me and know to avoid this stuff, or there aren’t as many of us as some people might think. As long as **BrainGlutton** is making honest points, I’ll keep tossing out my opinions. But I’ll probably avoid similar threads in the future. Politics and religion - I keep telling myself to stay out of it, but I just don’t listen to me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/57 "2006-08-25T17:27:12Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] And **John Mace** , I stayed out of this for as long as possible because I kept reading that this board was chock-full of libertarians… Either they are a lot brighter than me and know to avoid this stuff, or there aren’t as many of us as some people might think. [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t say “chock-full”, but I’d certainly say overrepresented as compare to the real world. We had one real Libertarian as a long-time poster, but he left a few months ago. The rest, AFAIK, are small “l” libertarian, who are often referred to as “conservative” here. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/58 "2006-08-25T19:07:32Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I wouldn’t say “chock-full”, but I’d certainly say overrepresented as compare to the real world. We had one real Libertarian as a long-time poster, but he left a few months ago. The rest, AFAIK, are small “l” libertarian, who are often referred to as “conservative” here. [/QUOTE] libertarian=conservative 😕 People must glance at one or two points and run with 'em. Yeah **John Mace** I s’pose there’s no real point in drawing out the debate, no one’s really listening, are they? Besides, the two-party system is working out so well for us > [@](#): > > Libertarians are hostile in principle to corporate welfare and bailouts, no-bid sweetheart contracts, etc. Sure would be terrible to be associated with a party that’s against that kind of thing. Even the OP (who was responsible for that quote) dismisses libertarians as covert republicans (or vice-versa). I guess if I got all my information from L Neil Smith and the Democratic party, I’d think libertarians were nutballs too. I should go back to arguing with **Martini Enfield** about service rifles… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/59 "2006-08-25T20:25:59Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] Even the OP (who was responsible for that quote) dismisses libertarians as covert republicans (or vice-versa). I guess if I got all my information from L Neil Smith and the Democratic party, I’d think libertarians were nutballs too. [/QUOTE] I never (in this thread) said they were nutballs, only that they are politically marginal and doomed to remain so. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820/60 "2006-08-25T20:32:00Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I never (in this thread) said they were nutballs, only that they are politically marginal and doomed to remain so. [/QUOTE] No, that’s fine. I freely admit that there are some serious nutballz out there (remember the blue guy in Montana?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-libertarianism-dead/369820.md?page=4)