# Is LOTR sexist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 30, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232 "2012-01-30T22:16:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/41 "2012-02-02T19:09:09Z")
> [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](#): > > Don’t think it’s fair to count Eowyn’s exhaustion after killing the Witch King is fair. Have not read the books but in the movie it seemed pretty clear it was a kind of magic backlash that injured her. Same thing happened to Pippin when he stabbed the WK. You misspelled “Merry”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/42 "2012-02-02T19:41:16Z")
Quercus - I think you’re being a tad unfair to Eowyn (and I know we’ve recently had a thread about her), though I basically agree with you that the issue of her abandoning her assigned post to sneak away to battle wasn’t addressed in the books. I don’t think she snuck away seeking glory - I think she realized that battle was horrible. I just don’t think she could stand being left behind anymore. esp not by Aragorn. think of all that time she had been basically alone in the Golden Hall - with Grima stalking her. ---
**Author:** ![Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Christopher_Robin_Davies)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/43 "2012-02-02T22:14:29Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > You misspelled “Merry”. 🙂 Sorry. I had a hard time telling them apart at times. You are right. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/44 "2012-02-03T14:19:15Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > Quercus - I think you’re being a tad unfair to Eowyn (and I know we’ve recently had a thread about her), though I basically agree with you that the issue of her abandoning her assigned post to sneak away to battle wasn’t addressed in the books. I don’t think she snuck away seeking glory - I think she realized that battle was horrible. I just don’t think she could stand being left behind anymore. esp not by Aragorn. think of all that time she had been basically alone in the Golden Hall - with Grima stalking her. Here is that [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=634772). It’s worth reading, **Quercus**. **Christopher Robin** , I think it would be a good idea for you to read the books. The movies were wonderful, truly, and the filmmakers tried very hard to put as much Tolkien into them as they could, but book LotR has much to offer. Plus, you’d never mix up Merry and Pippin again. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/45 "2012-02-03T19:12:20Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Here is that [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=634772). It’s worth reading, **Quercus**. I’m pretty sure I did read it; it’s just that you and **Lasciel** put it pretty well already, so there wasn’t much for me to add. And my point was that Eowyn as a character cuts both ways when discussing sexism in LOTR. Mostly, I think it’s to Tolkien’s immense credit that the perhaps most complex and interesting character in the book is a woman. I mean, really, all feminism really asks is that women be treated as actual human beings. The fact that the woman feels trapped by traditional sex roles shows that Tolkien is even able to see the oppression many women face. But, if you look just at the plot with Eowyn, you can make an argument that it doesn’t really challenge sex roles. Sure, she rebels against her role in life, but eventually comes to her senses, disavows here desire to be a fighter, and settles down in a conventional (ruling-class) marriage with a nice husband (presumably cheerfully obeying him in everything). There, there dear, we’re very glad you got over your silly ideas. Again, I’m not saying that Eowyn is on whole anti-feminist; but I thought that the argument on the anti side should be made. ---
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/46 "2012-02-03T19:54:36Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > But, if you look just at the plot with Eowyn, you can make an argument that it doesn’t really challenge sex roles. Sure, she rebels against her role in life, but eventually comes to her senses, disavows here desire to be a fighter, and settles down in a conventional (ruling-class) marriage with a nice husband (presumably cheerfully obeying him in everything). There, there dear, we’re very glad you got over your silly ideas. > > Again, I’m not saying that Eowyn is on whole anti-feminist; but I thought that the argument on the anti side should be made. Yeah, it could be interpreted that way, though I think it’s too complicated to walk away with that as the primary message. This is the great thing about Eowyn - she’s fantastically complex and contradictory, the same as real people. We couldn’t have a discussion like this about Arwen. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/47 "2012-02-03T19:58:00Z")
Eowyn is much better drawn as a character - But Arwen did have that “immortality as an elf or death as the wife of a human” choice to keep her character a bit interesting. and Aragorn must have seen something in her… ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/48 "2012-02-03T20:11:41Z")
Arwen grew up in a much less sexist society than those of Men, and was almost three thousand years old. She was long past a point in her life where she would be struggling with the kinds of issues Eowyn had, and long past a point where she would do so publicly in any case. The fact that Arwen is not on stage for the vast majority of LotR does not make her a weak or shallow character. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/49 "2012-02-03T20:36:10Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > Eowyn is much better drawn as a character - But Arwen did have that “immortality as an elf or death as the wife of a human” choice to keep her character a bit interesting. and Aragorn must have seen something in her… She was real purty and also good at embroidery. I’m kidding, but, actually the book doesn’t give you much to go on, as far as their relationship, even including the Tale. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/50 "2012-02-03T20:37:02Z")
good points as ever Oy! off my own topic - I’m wondering if folks still read these wonderful books. I know they’re still in print, if course. wonder if the release of the Hobbit movie this year will re-stoke interest in the books. ---
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/51 "2012-02-03T20:42:17Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > The fact that Arwen is not on stage for the vast majority of LotR does not make her a weak or shallow character. I wasn’t saying that she was weak or shallow, just that she’s not fleshed out the way Eowyn is. If she’s conflicted, we really don’t see it, so there’s not as much to talk about with her. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/52 "2012-02-03T20:45:51Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > good points as ever Oy! > > off my own topic - I’m wondering if folks still read these wonderful books. I know they’re still in print, if course. wonder if the release of the Hobbit movie this year will re-stoke interest in the books. yes. Most books that have been in print continuously for 50 years are that way because some people have been known to read them. They sold a metric asston during the three-year period when the movies came out (I worked in HQ of a bookseller at the time, I know this for a fact). Back on topic - it’s a lot more clear why Eowyn and Faramir love each other. They both lost their mothers young (IIRC, they talk about it a little in the houses of Healing). They both were the less-favored, powerless-to-change-anything sibling of a royal house in crisis. They both experienced the Black Breath and lived through it. They both had traumatic combat experience in the war, during which their fathers both died. Actually they have a ton in common. Aragorn and Arwen? Um… like I said, she’s real purty and can embroider well. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/53 "2012-02-03T20:47:48Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Aragorn and Arwen? Um… like I said, she’s real purty and can embroider well. Indeed. One way in which the movies (particularly the first one) improved on the books. ---
**Author:** ![Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Christopher_Robin_Davies)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/54 "2012-02-03T21:01:47Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Arwen grew up in a much less sexist society than those of Men, and was almost three thousand years old. She was long past a point in her life where she would be struggling with the kinds of issues Eowyn had, and long past a point where she would do so publicly in any case. > > The fact that Arwen is not on stage for the vast majority of LotR does not make her a weak or shallow character. Is the scene with her and the Black Riders not in the book? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/55 "2012-02-03T21:19:33Z")
> [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](#): > > Is the scene with her and the Black Riders not in the book? No. A different character, who does not appear in the movies at all, does that (everything that happens, including the pursuit of the black riders and the confrontation at the river is about the same). In fact, Arwen is not _in_ LOTR at all except as a very minor background character. There an Appendix to the books, called “The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen” which tells their story, which is mainly tangential to LOTR. The scene of Elrond’s vision of Arwen’s future, is a totally true vision because it’s exactly what happened at the end of her life, as told in the Tale. Also in the books Elrond does not object to Arwen marrying a human (Elrond himself is half-human) . He just sets a condition of his blessing: it can’t happen unless Aragorn takes the High King’s throne. In the books Aragorn isn’t reluctant for the kingship at all. He’s been working up to it for years. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/56 "2012-02-03T21:23:46Z")
> [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](#): > > Is the scene with her and the Black Riders not in the book? No - in the books another elf, sent as a scout from Rivendell provides the horse. Frodo rides alone and has a great moment where he stands up to the Black Riders crying 'go back to Mordor…you shall have neither the ring nor me!". Of course the movies took that moment away as they insisted on turning Frodo the Hero into Frodo the damsel in distress. I love those movies, but some things just grate. Otherwise, Hello Again’s summary is superb. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/57 "2012-02-03T22:20:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Also in the books Elrond does not object to Arwen marrying a human (Elrond himself is half-human) . He just sets a condition of his blessing: it can’t happen unless Aragorn takes the High King’s throne. In the books Aragorn isn’t reluctant for the kingship at all. He’s been working up to it for years. And really, Elrond’s condition is pretty reasonable, compared to the last time a human wanted to marry the daughter of a great elf-lord. Thingol demanded that Beren bring him one of the three great gems whose like the gods themselves could not match, and which were at the time set in the iron throne of the previous Dark Lord, the mightiest being in all of Creation. Which incidentally set up Beren to deliver the best come-back line in all of literature. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/58 "2012-02-03T22:42:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And really, Elrond’s condition is pretty reasonable, compared to the last time a human wanted to marry the daughter of a great elf-lord. Thingol demanded that Beren bring him one of the three great gems whose like the gods themselves could not match, and which were at the time set in the iron throne of the previous Dark Lord, the mightiest being in all of Creation. Which incidentally set up Beren to deliver the best come-back line in all of literature. And that was? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/59 "2012-02-03T22:49:42Z")
> [@simster](#): > > And that was? “Huh, cheapo Elf-kings sell their daughters for jewellery…” 😛 Seriously - the language was fancier, but that was the sentiment. He didn’t quite add “Smoke me a kipper, I’ll be back for breakfast” but he might as well have done. ---
**Author:** ![Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Christopher_Robin_Davies)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232/60 "2012-02-03T23:28:22Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > No. A different character, who does not appear in the movies at all, does that (everything that happens, including the pursuit of the black riders and the confrontation at the river is about the same). > > In fact, Arwen is not _in_ LOTR at all except as a very minor background character. There an Appendix to the books, called “The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen” which tells their story, which is mainly tangential to LOTR. The scene of Elrond’s vision of Arwen’s future, is a totally true vision because it’s exactly what happened at the end of her life, as told in the Tale. > > Also in the books Elrond does not object to Arwen marrying a human (Elrond himself is half-human) . He just sets a condition of his blessing: it can’t happen unless Aragorn takes the High King’s throne. In the books Aragorn isn’t reluctant for the kingship at all. He’s been working up to it for years. Do the elves in the books all have the power of prophecy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-lotr-sexist/611232.md?page=4)