# Is mainstream America mostly conservative? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901 "2008-09-10T04:52:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RetroVertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@RetroVertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RetroVertigo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/21 "2008-09-10T17:09:52Z")
Thanks for the links **BrainGlutton**. The Pew Research polls are interesting. My friends problem is that he sees things in black and white. There are no shades of gray when arguing politics, which is why I usually avoid doing so. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/22 "2008-09-10T17:31:08Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I agree with you that people use their own yardstick to determine where their society is (only when the US does it somehow it’s a bad thing). It’s a bad thing because we, in particular, and more so than other nations, are addicted to that attitude, and remarkably oblivious to how or what other countries think, and reluctant to look to them for examples of how we might do things better here. It’s all part of [American Exceptionalism,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism) which is a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/23 "2008-09-10T17:31:38Z")
[quote=“xtisme, post:18, topic:462901”] Well, ‘world standards’ are a bit, um, fuzzy, since it would depend on where in The World™ you are talking about. [quote] No, I mean the world _en masse_. > [@](#): > > So, obviously I meant local standards (in this case the US). > > On a related issue, do you generally use US standards (or ‘the worlds’) when talking about your own political system? I use world standards. Where Socialism and Unionism is Left Wing and Fascism and Corporatism is Right Wing, with myriads of points inbetween and to either side. Geneally I prefer a two- or 3-axis political model anyway, but this debate was couched in binary terms of liberal vs conservative to start, with no distinction between fiscal and social subtypes. > [@](#): > > Where on the continuity bar do you stack up again The World™? Left? Right? Center? \*Far \*Left. No, further than that. …further… …further… …further… Let’s put it this way - I live in a country run by a coalition that includes the Communist Party and a national Trade Union, and I’m further Left than them. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/24 "2008-09-10T21:49:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > By American standards, or world standards? > > Where I’m standing, the average American is more of a Right Winger than David Beckham. I think this is a great question. I don’t see myself as conservative, liberal or moderate by American standards. I sit further left than any governing party I can think of. I sit further left than any communist party for that matter: place me in the CNT-FAI camp. The liberal-conservative dichotomy leaves out American-style libertarians as well as Euro-style ones like me (and never the twain shall meet) as well as, I suspect, a host of other people who don’t fit on that axis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/25 "2008-09-11T11:40:11Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Depends on how you mean conservative… > > Most people I know to some extent believe as ideals- > > in God & respect religion, > that marital fidelity is important and that cheating and divorce are undesirable, > that mental clarity is good & overindulgence in anything like booze or drugs > should be minimized, > that kids are better off when raised by a mother & a father, > that homosexuality is at best a little weird, > that people should work for what they get to the extent that they are able, > that immigration should be decently regulated and that people who come > here should respect the law, speak the common language and not expect public services, > that military service is honorable, > that success and wealth should not be penalized and that irresponsibility should > not be subsidized, > that national defense should be a government priority, > being tough on incorrigible or heinous criminals, > that public schools should focus on the three R’s first and secondarily support the above values rather than challenging them… > etc. > > Now, there are a lot of self-identified liberals who believe all the above but are more lenient about much of it. And I am sure that we can come up with a list of values & beliefs which are regarded as liberal which most Americans believe. If marital fidelity is held in such high regard then if one uses the Bible as a truth Most american’s are living in adultery. McCain as well. The Bible tells believers" He who puts away his wife and takes up another commits adultery, he who marries one who has been put away also commits adultery" and as Jimmy carter stated one can commit adultery in his heart. Many fundies are on their 2d and third marriage.I know several. What value is there in teaching Creation in a science class? I think the Bible if it were taught like any other subject pointing out the errors people would soon change their mind about it being the "word of God " and realize it is in fact the word of humans. Jesus was a bleeding heart liberal, he said the law was made for man not man for the law, and seemed to dislike the letter of the law conservatives of his time. He was called a wino, who hung around with sinners. As for kids being better off being raised by a mother and father, that may be the ideal, but I know of many cases where it would have been better had they not; also there are many single parents either by devorice or death of one spouse have raised very good productive families. According to some beliefs, Mary and Joesph were not really married because they never consumated their marriage. If a person is biologically Homosexual it is not their fault or weird except to someone who doesn’t understand that they are just as decent or moral as any hetorsexual. Monavis Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/26 "2008-09-11T16:07:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s a bad thing because we, in particular, and more so than other nations, are addicted to that attitude, and remarkably oblivious to how or what other countries think, and reluctant to look to them for examples of how we might do things better here. It’s all part of [American Exceptionalism,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism) which is a bad thing. According to you. Maybe one would look to Italy, currently on its 45th government in 46 years, or whatever? Or France, collaborators par excellence? Or England? I hear England has some mighty interesting flavors of potato crisps. Did I mention they also watch lots of soccer and get staggeringly drunk in the streets? I’m not sure what much else they have going on. Don’t get me started on Germany and Japan. Exceptionalism sometimes means being the only grown up in the room full of your adopted sponsees. Sometimes the sponsees get uppity. Doesn’t mean you need to be particularly solicitous about eliciting or listening to their sophomoric views. Oh please, Norway, tell us the secret of how to run the world. What’s that you say? Discover North Sea oil, have a minuscule population, and rely on the U.S. for fifty years to liberate you from the Germans and keep you from Soviet rape and plunder? Yeah, we’ll get right on that. If the exceptionalist shoe fits . . . . noblesse oblige. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/27 "2008-09-11T20:26:17Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Oh please, Norway, tell us the secret of how to run the world. . Ignoring all the assorted xenophobia in your post for now. But you’ve identified a problem. You seem to think, in an astounding display of arrogance, that America should be ‘running the world’. You’ve assumed this why? Is it because you think night makes right, and having the massive military might you do allows it? Is it that you think the US occupies some sort of moral high-ground? You mention people in the U.K. being drunk in the streets. Big deal. Been to New Orleans ever? Perhaps you consider invading various countries or propping up fascist states to be the high ground? Because it protects the interests of a U.S. based banana company, or coal company, or oil company or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/28 "2008-09-11T20:44:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > By American standards, or world standards? > > Where I’m standing, the average American is more of a Right Winger than David Beckham. I think you’re taking a very selective snapshot of the “world.” For instance, do you think the human rights practices in China line up very well with western liberal idealogy? How about equality between genders in Saudi Arabia? How about acceptance of homosexuality in Mexico? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/29 "2008-09-11T21:01:14Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > Ignoring all the assorted xenophobia in your post for now. But you’ve identified a problem. You seem to think, in an astounding display of arrogance, that America should be ‘running the world’. You’ve assumed this why? Is it because you think night makes right, and having the massive military might you do allows it? Is it that you think the US occupies some sort of moral high-ground? You mention people in the U.K. being drunk in the streets. Big deal. Been to New Orleans ever? Perhaps you consider invading various countries or propping up fascist states to be the high ground? Because it protects the interests of a U.S. based banana company, or coal company, or oil company or whatever. Oh, by no means do I think the U.S. should be running the world. The noblesse oblige comment should have tipped you off to the fact that I suspect the U.S. found itself in the default position of the only adult, solvent, non-decadent country that had not brought it self to the brink of Continent-wide annihiliation (as the Solons of Europe and the Mandarins of the East had managed to do by 1945). The Usual Suspects who are so sure that they know much better than the U.S. almost always come from countries that have taken a free ride (militarily, culturally, innovation-wise) off of the U.S. for 60 years – the decadent ruined countries of Europe who avoided starvation only through the Marshall Plan, all the client-states spared the expense of formulating their own defenses against expansionist communism, etc. I suspect many Americans would gladly resign from the only-superpower status. It’d save a lot of money, and relieve the irritation of hearing from the self-appointed sophisticates in the pipsqueak countries of the peanut gallery. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/30 "2008-09-11T21:16:24Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > According to you. > > Maybe one would look to Italy, currently on its 45th government in 46 years, or whatever? Or France, collaborators par excellence? Or England? I hear England has some mighty interesting flavors of potato crisps. Did I mention they also watch lots of soccer and get staggeringly drunk in the streets? I’m not sure what much else they have going on. > > Don’t get me started on Germany and Japan. All countries where, **today,** things in general go much better than they go in the U.S. From [“The American Paradox,”](http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2003/01/halstead.htm) by Ted Halstead, published in _The Atlantic Monthly,_ January/February 2003: > [@](#): > > Nothing illustrates America’s profound contradictions more starkly than a comparison with other advanced democracies: among these the United States is either the very best or the very worst performer on a wide range of social and economic criteria. We are simultaneously the leader and the laggard among our peers—almost always exceptional, almost never in the middle. > > Without question we are the richest, most powerful, and most creative nation on the planet. Our economic and military might stems from our embrace of a particularly high-octane brand of capitalism, supported by financial markets that are deeper and broader than any others, labor markets that are more flexible, and a culture of entrepreneurialism that is unparalleled. These attributes have turned America into the world’s unrivaled engine of innovation and wealth creation. We boast more patent applications than the entire European Union; almost three times as many Nobel laureates as Britain, our closest competitor; and more business start-ups per capita than almost every other advanced democracy. One in twelve Americans will start his or her own business, evincing another outstanding American trait—our great tolerance for risk. And our export of movies, television shows, music, and fast-food chains makes us, for better or worse, the dominant cultural force on the globe. > > But like the Roman god Janus, America has two faces. Despite being the richest nation on the planet, we suffer from higher rates of poverty, infant mortality, homicide, and HIV infection, and from greater economic inequality, than other advanced democracies. We have far more uninsured citizens, and a lower life expectancy. On a per capita basis the United States emits considerably more greenhouse gases and produces more solid waste. We spend more per student on K-12 education than almost all other modern democracies, yet our students perform near the bottom on international tests. We have the highest rates of teen pregnancy and among the highest proportions of single parents, and American parents have the least amount of free time to spend with their children; indeed, the average American works nine weeks more each year than the average European. Our performance on many social indicators is so poor, in fact, that an outsider looking at these numbers alone might conclude that we were a developing nation. > > How do we reconcile these two faces of America? To a remarkable degree the United States seems to have exchanged social cohesion and a broad-based middle class for economic dynamism and personal freedom. Have we abandoned what used to be referred to as the common good? > > \ > > THE TWO FACES OF AMERICA > > This list of “bests” and “worsts” is based on a variety of sources—including statistics from the United Nations, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, and a number of other groups and experts—but the basic criteria are consistent. Among advanced democracies, America had to rank in the top three for a category to be listed under “bests” and in the bottom three for a category to be listed under “worsts.” (Where applicable, all rankings were determined on a rate basis or as a percentage of population.) > > Bests-------------------------------------------------Worsts > > Gross domestic product------------------------------Poverty > Productivity---------------------------------------------Economic inequality > Business start-ups------------------------------------Carbon-dioxide emissions > Long-term unemployment---------------------------Life expectancy > Expenditure on education---------------------------Infant mortality > University graduates----------------------------------Homicide > R&D expenditure---------------------------------------Health-care coverage > High-tech exports--------------------------------------HIV infection > Movies exported---------------------------------------Teen pregnancy > Breadth of stock ownership--------------------------Personal savings > Volunteerism--------------------------------------------Voter participation > Charitable giving---------------------------------------Obesity Each approach to the social contract has its pluses and minuses, of course, but **on balance** America has made a very bad bargain for itself and should learn from the examples of others. > [@Huerta88](#): > > Exceptionalism sometimes means being the only grown up in the room full of your adopted sponsees. And, in our case, that is what it meant in 1945. Today it means being the senile crazy uncle in the room who yet remains too rich and too strong-willed to be gracefully moved down to the basement. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/31 "2008-09-11T21:23:18Z")
I think most Americans care more about a single or small group of issues than they do about any comprehensive platform. Most Americans are Christians, and either don’t care about religion in the government, or would like to see more of it. Most Americans either don’t care about guns, or are strongly opposed to more gun control. Most American voters strongly support law enforcement, the prison systems, and lower taxes. None of these are issues that liberals can compete on. If a liberal wins the presidency, it’s by sheer force of character, which is what Americans care about more than any of the other issues. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/32 "2008-09-11T21:27:01Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > I think you’re taking a very selective snapshot of the “world.” For instance, do you think the human rights practices in China line up very well with western liberal idealogy? How about equality between genders in Saudi Arabia? How about acceptance of homosexuality in Mexico? These have what to do with left vs right wing? Basic human rights are not a left vs. right-wing issue. Modes of governance and economics are. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/33 "2008-09-11T21:35:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And, in our case, that is what it meant in 1945. Today it means being the senile crazy uncle in the room who yet remains too rich and too strong-willed to be gracefully moved down to the basement. Yes, but the past is prologue. You can’t expect a country to spend 50 years as financier, military surety, technological innovator, pop culture purveyor,to everyone else, without itself being changed in the process and adapting to what is – there’s no other word – an exceptional or sui generis role in the world. Which is why I agree with much of the detailed discussion in your post – all of which (to me) seems to suggest that American exceptionalism (for better and worse) exists and has become (for now) unavoidable. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/34 "2008-09-11T21:43:51Z")
American exceptionalism isn’t really about the role of _America_ in the world, though, it’s about the attitude displayed by _Americans_ in that role. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/35 "2008-09-11T21:58:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > American exceptionalism isn’t really about the role of _America_ in the world, though, it’s about the attitude displayed by _Americans_ in that role. But they are intertwined, aren’t they? If you know that you spent the years between 1871 and 1941 building up an advanced, peacable democracy, not trying to meddle too much in others’ affairs (sorry Spain, but they were asking for it), fostering a well-fed, fairly-well-educated populace that was agriculturally and industrially productive – while the Europeans were spending it inventing horrible doctrines and starting horrible wars based on moronic fallacies about race, nationalism, stupid economic theories, territorial expansionism, and over in the East you’ve got people thinking their emperor is literally a god and that some bastardized version of Lebensraum justifies a Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere – how could you have avoided thinking, not just “our role is different,” but “ **we** are different?” And it’s not crazy to suggest that there **was** in fact something in the American character, or polity, that put them in the position of cleaning up the mess in 1945. Having assumed this role, and having adopted the concomitant attitude – at what point would Americans just spontaneously stop feeling that way, and why? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901/36 "2008-09-12T00:53:02Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > But they are intertwined, aren’t they? If you know that you spent the years between 1871 and 1941 building up an advanced, peacable democracy, not trying to meddle too much in others’ affairs (sorry Spain, but they were asking for it) . . . Perhaps, but the states of the Caribbean and Central America weren’t. (When I was a newspaper reporter, I once interviewed a retired Marine who had fought in Nicaragua – against [Sandino.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandino)) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mainstream-america-mostly-conservative/462901.md?page=1)