# Is making "German = Nazi" themed jokes excessively rude to modern Germans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360 "2004-06-26T22:26:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/41 "2004-06-29T11:55:50Z")
> [@Mycroft Holmes](#): > > I always mention that I don’t find Nazi jokes funny, because my grandfather died in a concentration camp. After a few moments of uncomfortable silence, I mention the fact that he got drunk and fell off the watchtower. If you meant that joke, I happen to think it’s the perfect answer, because it makes clear to people just what it is that they are joking about. I use a similar technique, for the same reason. German=Nazi jokes aren’t desperately offensive to me anymore, I’ve become so climatised to them that any sting/humour they’re supposed to have had is long dead. Likewise using that term against me as an insult. It’s just old and boring. The thing that annoys me is people seriously trawling out all this crap as an excuse not to look to themselves as the root cause of whatever problem. Nazis, Jews, Black, Immigrants, Travellers, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/42 "2004-06-29T12:32:28Z")
> [@Tir Tinuviel](#): > > The thing that annoys me is people seriously trawling out all this crap as an excuse not to look to themselves as the root cause of whatever problem. Nazis, Jews, Black, Immigrants, Travellers, etc. It was just pointed out to me that I didn’t make this too clear. I’m not talking about people who tell jokes about those things (although stereotypical jokes are rarely funny unless they’re cleverly tied into current events, and then they’re only funny once). I meant people who say things like “I can’t get a job, I blame the …”, or “This would be a nice neighbourhood if it wasn’t for those…” ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/43 "2004-06-29T13:23:31Z")
While we’re on the subject I’m constantly surprised by folks who assume that because I’m Jewish, I must hate Germany, and all German companies, or anybody with German heritage. I have German heritage. The only company I avoid due to the bigotry of a past executive is Ford. Henry Ford wrote a lovely column, The International Jew, in which he repeated the Protocols as fact and spewed hatred in other fun ways. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/44 "2004-06-29T18:29:47Z")
I think the comparison that was made to KKK jokes is interesting. I’m an American, and I’m white, but KKK jokes don’t bother me; I still laugh when I see spoofs of the KKK. To me, ridiculing them just emphasizes the absurdity and evilness of their beliefs. So I’m wondering what the difference is between Nazi jokes and KKK jokes. > [@DocCathode](#): > > I have German heritage. The only company I avoid due to the bigotry of a past executive is Ford. Henry Ford wrote a lovely column, The International Jew, in which he repeated the Protocols as fact and spewed hatred in other fun ways. This is a sidetrack, but why would you boycott the Ford Company _now_, when Henry Ford is dead? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/45 "2004-06-29T18:47:51Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > I’m an American, and I’m white, but KKK jokes don’t bother me; I still laugh when I see spoofs of the KKK. To me, ridiculing them just emphasizes the absurdity and evilness of their beliefs. So I’m wondering what the difference is between Nazi jokes and KKK jokes. How often do people really make white American = KKK jokes to you? ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/46 "2004-06-29T18:49:21Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > I’m an American, and I’m white, but KKK jokes don’t bother me; I still laugh when I see spoofs of the KKK. To me, ridiculing them just emphasizes the absurdity and evilness of their beliefs. So I’m wondering what the difference is between Nazi jokes and KKK jokes. The counterpart of general KKK jokes would be Nazi jokes - and I think so far most people here agreed that there is nothing wrong with those per se. What is getting “tiresome” is the constant association of every non-nazi German with nazis. So imagine that most of the time when Americans are mentioned someone makes a KKK reference (or a bit more current a reference to torture, bombing wedding parties…) I think you would wonder what those have to do with Americans in general. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/47 "2004-06-29T19:10:26Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > So imagine that most of the time when Americans are mentioned someone makes a KKK reference (or a bit more current a reference to torture, bombing wedding parties…) I think you would wonder what those have to do with Americans in general. Not really - when torture and military aggression are criticized, I tend to agree. Anyone who supports such things _should_ be castigated, and sadly, there are a lot of Americans who _do_ support such things. But I give people enough credit to know they realize that that doesn’t represent 100% of the U.S. population. If someone were to make a joke about Americans starting wars or stealing land or whatever, I really don’t think it would bother me. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/48 "2004-06-29T19:15:13Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > How often do people really make white American = KKK jokes to you? Dave Chapelle does it on his show a lot. But I guess you have a point. A better analogy would be Southerners=KKK. And since I’m not a Southerner, maybe that’s why it doesn’t bother me. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/49 "2004-06-29T21:39:23Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > This is a sidetrack, but why would you boycott the Ford Company _now_, when Henry Ford is dead? I meant to put a modifying clause in there, couldn’t decide on how to phrase it, and accidentally left it out. It should read 'If I were to avoid a company" or something similar. As I can’t afford insurance, gasoline, and such I won’t be buying any car anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/50 "2004-06-30T05:20:56Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > So, do you tell jokes about blacks? Sure do, every chance I get. :rolleyes: I want to follow in the footsteps of that famously funny and exceptionally popular comedic genius, Dave Chappelle. Except I’m white, so while it’s quite acceptable and in fact desirable for him to be crass, rude, and disturbingly offensive, for me it’s quite another thing. That’s one hell of a double standard, if you ask me. But you didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/51 "2004-06-30T06:18:04Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > I want to follow in the footsteps of that famously funny and exceptionally popular comedic genius, Dave Chappelle. Except I’m white, so while it’s quite acceptable and in fact desirable for him to be crass, rude, and disturbingly offensive, for me it’s quite another thing. > > That’s one hell of a double standard, if you ask me. But you didn’t. Airman Doors, USAF, you still don’t understand. It _is_ desirable for him to be crass, rude and _disturbingly offensive_ (I thought nothing was too vile or rude for you?) because that’s what it’s like when he’s funny. It’s not OK because he’s black or because he pokes fun at whitey. It’s his job and he succeeds marvelously at being funny. On the other hand, you probably aren’t very funny. Your job is to serve your country and defend freedom from evildoers and while you might do a super job of it, being funny just isn’t part of what your boss ,or anybody else, evaluates you on. Likewise with Mel Brooks, Matt Groening or the Blues Bothers. When _they_ make jokes about Nazis, they’re usually talking about and poking fun at Nazis. Nazis are fantastic comic fodder – for funny people. However, taking one of their hilarious jokes and using it to smear present day Germans as Nazis merely because of a topic in the news about a non-nazi related German is just stupid. It’s also a good indicator that the person making the joke is not the brainiest or well informed person you’ll ever meet. Jokes about pedestrian chickens usually aren’t considered very funny but they don’t defame anybody either. But criminal nigger or sweaty towelhead gags are a one shot deal, if they work at all. After the first telling there’s as much chucklarity in the room as there is after the chicken joke but a whole lot more hurt. At the very least there is this bewilderment; _does this guy **still** think that shit is funny?_ Stick with the chicken jokes until you have reason to believe you know what you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/52 "2004-06-30T12:42:39Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Sure do, every chance I get. :rolleyes: I want to follow in the footsteps of that famously funny and exceptionally popular comedic genius, Dave Chappelle. Except I’m white, so while it’s quite acceptable and in fact desirable for him to be crass, rude, and disturbingly offensive, for me it’s quite another thing. > > That’s one hell of a double standard, if you ask me. But you didn’t. You’re also not a comedic genius. And you’re not on a TV show that features crass, rude and offensive comedy. And even taking into account both these facts, if you were the first to come up with rewording R Kelly’s Ignition Remix with the words _Lemme give you that poo poo. Can you give me that pee pee_ it would have been just as funny. So no, I don’t see much of a double standard at all. Not that you asked me. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/53 "2004-07-01T00:30:49Z")
Earlier someone mentioned Enterprise’s alien Nazi finale. [Here’s a great article about it (scroll down to the bottom for **Zero Hour** ).](http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/episodes/ent3a.htm) Its from Ex Astris Scientia, a very well done Star Trek fan site whose creator is also German. At first I felt he was just being overly sensitive. But he makes some very valid points and the column is very articulate and well written. In particular this point: _“Germany has a recorded history more than four times as long as the USA, it has been the home to countless world-famous composers, philosophers, authors, inventors or physicists. It is just wrong to reduce all this to the twelve years of one barbarian regime.”_ ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/54 "2004-07-01T19:51:08Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > Earlier someone mentioned Enterprise’s alien Nazi finale. [Here’s a great article about it (scroll down to the bottom for **Zero Hour** ).](http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/episodes/ent3a.htm) Its from Ex Astris Scientia, a very well done Star Trek fan site whose creator is also German. > > At first I felt he was just being overly sensitive. But he makes some very valid points and the column is very articulate and well written. In particular this point: > > _“Germany has a recorded history more than four times as long as the USA, it has been the home to countless world-famous composers, philosophers, authors, inventors or physicists. It is just wrong to reduce all this to the twelve years of one barbarian regime.”_ Personally, I think this guy’s article is absurd. He says: > [@](#): > > Where is Germany in Star Trek? Aside from rare casual references there has never been anyone or anything German on Star Trek. Well, with the striking exception of the three Nazi episodes (and an upcoming fourth one). So is it that we should feel honored to be featured more often than other nations that have no place in an all-American universe? References to _any_ other countries are rare on Star Trek. That’s because (A) it’s an American show, and (B) it takes place in SPACE, not on Earth. Just off the top of my head, a prominent positive reference was made to Johannes Brahms, the famous German composer, on Star Trek TOS. The music of Mozart has been featured on TNG in a positive way. On TNG, Lt. Barkley discusses physics with the famous German physicist Albert Einstein, who is portrayed in a very flattering light. Star Trek has few, if any, entire episodes devoted to featuring the postive aspects of _any_ country. In fact, I can’t think of a single episode like that, ever. This guy’s looking for controversy where there is none. Why is it that I don’t hear any Italians griping about the episode that featured a brutal 20th Century Roman Empire that engaged in slavery? Is it not equally unfair that the only reference to Italian culture on Star Trek was to the despotic Roman Empire? Or perhaps the good residents of Chicago should be upset that only mobsters were featured on Star Trek, and none of the positive aspects of the city. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/55 "2004-07-01T22:00:33Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Personally, I think this guy’s article is absurd. He says: > > References to _any_ other countries are rare on Star Trek. That’s because (A) it’s an American show, and (B) it takes place in SPACE, not on Earth. Just off the top of my head, a prominent positive reference was made to Johannes Brahms, the famous German composer, on Star Trek TOS. The music of Mozart has been featured on TNG in a positive way. On TNG, Lt. Barkley discusses physics with the famous German physicist Albert Einstein, who is portrayed in a very flattering light. Star Trek has few, if any, entire episodes devoted to featuring the postive aspects of _any_ country. In fact, I can’t think of a single episode like that, ever. This guy’s looking for controversy where there is none. Why is it that I don’t hear any Italians griping about the episode that featured a brutal 20th Century Roman Empire that engaged in slavery? Is it not equally unfair that the only reference to Italian culture on Star Trek was to the despotic Roman Empire? Or perhaps the good residents of Chicago should be upset that only mobsters were featured on Star Trek, and none of the positive aspects of the city. Don’t forget the TOS episode where Chekov makes the comment about the Garden of Eden being located right outside Moscow. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/56 "2004-07-02T00:02:21Z")
Yeah, although he does make some good points, in general he’s expecting too much from the Star Trek franchise. Every other paragraph or so I keep hearing Shatner on SNL saying, “For crying out loud, its just a TV show!” His formula for balancing a good television show vs. an important vision of the future is way off. I was disappointed in the ST:ENT finale just in the sense that its so clichéd. Battlestar Galactica did a time travel/Nazi episode for christ sake (even worse, it was in Galactica 1980!) ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/57 "2004-07-02T06:41:00Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > I was disappointed in the ST:ENT finale just in the sense that its so clichéd. Battlestar Galactica did a time travel/Nazi episode for christ sake (even worse, it was in Galactica 1980!) O.K., I’m with you there. Hell, it was cliched when they did it on TOS! Fortunately, the campiness of the episode, combined with Shatner’s usual overacting made it one of the most entertaining episodes ever. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/58 "2004-07-02T11:18:43Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > While we’re on the subject > > I’m constantly surprised by folks who assume that because I’m Jewish, I must hate Germany, and all German companies, or anybody with German heritage. > > I have German heritage. The only company I avoid due to the bigotry of a past executive is Ford. Henry Ford wrote a lovely column, The International Jew, in which he repeated the Protocols as fact and spewed hatred in other fun ways. Interesting. I’ve read the Dearborn Independant issues that contained said columns and yes they are anti-semitic. But highly amusing with it, sometimes it’s good to have these things to show how ridiculous racism and bigotry is. I also read that it wasn’t Henry Ford that wrote them the articles were written by several authors, including Ford’s personal secretary of 34 years, Ernest Liebold. None were actually penned by Ford, though since he was the paper’s publisher they required his tacit approval. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/59 "2004-07-02T11:41:26Z")
I totally agree that current Germans are not responsible for all that Nazi shit and that jokes gibes about Germans=Nazis are pointless and trite. However, I refuse to go to the other extreme as some would have us do, and claim that what happened in Germany in World War II and prior to it can only be blamed on Hitler and couple dozen of his top aides. Fact of the matter is, even prior to World War II, Germany was openly planning, or may even have already started, killing off mentally and physically handicapped people on the grounds that they were “unfit.” German culture was sick in those days. It made ordinary people accept some VERY sick shit. It took a collective effort to kill off so many Jews, Poles, Romany and others. The Germans of that time share a collective guilt for it. ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360/60 "2004-07-02T12:37:10Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > However, I refuse to go to the other extreme as some would have us do, and claim that what happened in Germany in World War II and prior to it can only be blamed on Hitler and couple dozen of his top aides. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anybody ever making this claim. I do think the way you address the issue of blame is interesting though. Most Germans realise WWII wasn’t simply the Hitler Show but Americans (and most other anglophones for that matter) often don’t. Hence the bewilderment that anybody under sixty could _possibly_ be called Adolf. After all, it _is_ just a name although much rarer now than prewar. Consider, are most Americans appalled at the idea of someone being called George even after all _his_ achievement? OK… it’s a shit name for a couple of reasons but you get my drift. > [@](#): > > Fact of the matter is, even prior to World War II, Germany was openly planning, or may even have already started, killing off mentally and physically handicapped people on the grounds that they were “unfit.” You know what one of the [prototypes](http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/eugenics/) for that idea was right? Sure, the euthanasia wasn’t as widespread but they both started with the same arguments for forced sterilisation. > [@](#): > > German culture was sick in those days. It made ordinary people accept some VERY sick shit. It took a collective effort to kill off so many Jews, Poles, Romany and others. The Germans of that time share a collective guilt for it. Come on dude! Sick and healthy cultures? How healthy is _your_ culture? Max Hardcore, Grand Theft Auto (British admittedly), Abu Ghraib and a Sec. State who built his career on spinning My Lai? What do you know of the difference between today’s German culture and that of _those days_? There is enough material there for a thesis’ worth of discussion. Volumes of theses even and to sum it up with that assertion just doesn’t really add anything of value. We all know about collective guilt and most accept that guilt can be from acts of omission as well as those of commission. You’re not telling us anything about Germany that we couldn’t predict about America or the rest of the world were it to undergo a massive Stanford Prison experiment. Little to do with culture. I’d recommend [Humanity: A Moral History of the Twentieth Century](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300087152/qid=1088771419/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-7863976-2690309?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Jonathan Glover for a more in depth and thoughtful consideration of why atrocity occurs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-making-german-nazi-themed-jokes-excessively-rude-to-modern-germans/252360.md?page=4)