# Is Male Circumcision Just as Bad as Female Genital Mutilation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238 "2017-04-25T19:14:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/21 "2017-04-25T21:21:31Z")
> [@Schoggi](#): > > This topic is approached from the wrong angle in countries that practice male genital cutting, **such as the OP did.** The fact that people who’ve something done to them, in this case a part of their genitals cut off, manage to justify an unnecessary procedure must not be mistaken with them being “okay” with it. Ask any european whether they’d be okay being circumcised and then go from there, because, believe it or not, these women being FGM’d in africa think they’re being saved by having their clitoris removed. It doesn’t matter what somebody who has had this procedure done on him thinks. That’s basic psychology, and it’s faulty logic. Bolding mine. Please do _not_ put words in my mouth. I claim no knowledge on this subject whatsoever (regarding males or females), and my questions are not a reflection of my doubts, concerns, skepticism, or personal position, they are merely intended to generate discussion. As some have claimed that most adult males think their circumcision is no big deal, I thought that a relevant aspect to discuss. I have no idea what the actual studies on this subject reveal. Bringing those studies to light is part of the purpose of this thread. > [@](#): > > The question should be “Should we remove a part of a normal penis in a child?” and the answer can only be no. Honestly, that kind of seems self-evident to me, unless there is very compelling evidence that it provides significant benefit. But since so many people who are vehemently opposed to circumcision equate the practice with FGM, I posed the question this way. There are plenty of questionable practices that people just do without thinking about them. To use one less extreme example, declawing cats is pretty common in the US. I’m aware it is illegal in other countries (also curious: is male circumcision outlawed in most Western countries? Or just less common?) I was probably in my mid-twenties before I ever saw anyone say anything about declawing cats being immoral or harmful to a cat. I had no knowledge about the physical factors involved, it was just what you did – spay/neuter, vaccinate, declaw. Once I became educated, I decided not to declaw my cats. This is why these sort of threads are useful – people can educate themselves and perhaps come to similar informed decisions. > [@](#): > > The idea of this outrage is not to make FGM seem more harmless than it is but to forcefully bind together these topics, not just because they are essentially the same problematic, but because any justification for male genital cutting or ignoring of it only leads to an unequal, exclusive fight against FGM and not circumcision. By mentioning them in the same go, we can actually fight both. This is an interesting argument, but I’m not sure I’m convinced, because I see these issues as culturally and socially very dramatically different, therefore any solutions would have to be different. To use my example from the Pit thread, it would be like trying to ameliorate the prevalence and impact of male sexual assault and female sexual assault ‘‘in one go’’ when they really have very different root causes, impacts, and outcomes. Or to draw another example, it would be like trying to ameliorate male rape in the US at the same time as ameliorating male rape in countries with governments that use rape as a form of social control. However horrible male circumcision may be, its purpose is not to control male sexuality. Its purpose is not to deny men the ability to feel sexual pleasure. I’m not really sure I understand, at this point, that it has any purpose at all. But at any rate, the approach to educating others must be different. You’re already at a -1 when you come barrelling into a thread about women’s issues because it’s a favorite tactic of misogynists to divert attention to themselves whenever we talk about the systemic oppression of women. I don’t believe that was your motive, it’s just a really common theme here. But right now, we are talking about a men’s issue. So let’s do that. [QUOTE=Schoggi] Why does it matter what women want? [/QUOTE] Yeah, women’s pleasure has jack-all to do with whether we should cut an infant’s penis. Agreed on that. **x-ray vision** thanks for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/22 "2017-04-25T21:31:42Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I’m not really sure I understand, at this point, that it has any purpose at all. Its purpose, from ancient times up until now, has been to physically mark some men as belonging to a tribe. Even among gentiles, it’s a big part of the motivation. “But how will daddy explain why his looks different?” or “What if he gets embarrassed in the locker room when his looks different from everyone else’s?” Even if it isn’t _the_ tribe, it’s all about fitting in. And in my opinion, that just isn’t good enough. ---
**Author:** ![Schoggi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@Schoggi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schoggi)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/23 "2017-04-25T21:32:16Z")
@SpiceWeasel At least one poster not going on about what an immoral “misogynistic” MRA euromoron I am. Well, progress. The only issue I have with your comment is the whole sexual pleasure reduction deal. If you read up on it, you’ll find that’s exactly why it was introduced in the united states. People make up these hygiene arguments and think what society does was logically decided on at some point, the truth is american circumcision was imported with the goal of reducing male masturbation. You know, I’ve experienced what I see here quite a few times. People might be put off of reddit and such for whatever MRA activity they, erroneously think, is going on that is full of misygony and societal hatred and all. Then you read through what most people say, or you see how on american forums people expect arguments against genital cutting, and it’s shocking and leaves you speechless. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/24 "2017-04-25T22:28:59Z")
Circumcision is a bad practice, but it is probably less bad than most FGM, and certainly less bad than the most extreme FGM. I’m unimpressed by the supposed health benefits, since essentially zero uncircumcised men get circumcised for that reason as adults. A few do for some acute medical reason (which is fine, you can do that when it comes up) and most do because they join a religion or culture that requires it (which is fine, since they’re adults). Basically, you’re doing a medically unnecessary and irreversible surgery on an infant for dubious reasons. Yeah, the outcome isn’t _that_ bad, but it’s not much to hang an argument on. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/25 "2017-04-25T22:30:48Z")
> [@Schoggi](#): > > @SpiceWeasel > the truth is american circumcision was imported with the goal of reducing male masturbation. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/26 "2017-04-25T22:38:47Z")
I’m firmly in the camp of “Unnecessary slicing is barbaric.” I really think even religious justification should be overruled on this one. If a religious person wants to have this cutting done, to a point they can be allowed to do so as an elective surgery when they turn 18. But cutting babies and children is barbaric. Cutting in unsanitary conditions is barbaric. Saying "But the special holy man licked the knife"is barbaric. We. Know. Better. Now. There is no need to continue practices that began before the availability of indoor plumbing. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/27 "2017-04-25T22:46:42Z")
I can sum up why I’m glad I was circumcised with one word: smegma. Eww, no. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/28 "2017-04-25T22:52:37Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Saying "But the special holy man licked the knife"is barbaric. Or worse. > **[New case of neonatal herpes caused by Jewish circumcision](https://nypost.com/2017/03/08/new-case-of-neonatal-herpes-caused-by-jewish-circumcision/)** > > The city Health Department has reported a new case of neonatal herpes caused by a controversial ritual Jewish circumcision. The ancient practice — known as metzitzah b’peh — requires a mohel, the p… > [@Ambivalid](#): > > I can sum up why I’m glad I was circumcised with one word: smegma. Eww, no. Something that would be barely noticeable if you wash regularly. Same as women that wash their labia regularly. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/29 "2017-04-25T22:56:24Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Something that would be barely noticeable if you wash regularly. Same as women that wash their labia regularly. I think it’s more that the word itself just _sounds_ gross. “Smegma”, it sounds like something you hack up from your lungs when sick. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/30 "2017-04-25T23:13:59Z")
> [@Schoggi](#): > > … the glans slowly keratinizing … What? What the hell are you talking about? > [@](#): > > … normal masturbation impaired due to the lack of natural lube, i.e. the foreskin. I’ve read enough german and american forums to know that europeans use lube in an exotic kind of way at the most, not for normal masturbation… Again, what? I am cut, and I have _never_ used lube for masturbation. As for lost sensitivity, that is really hard to gauge. I mean, most men who have been circumcised, had it done at a very early age and have no way to compare. I do not feel cheated, as it were, that it was done to me. ---
**Author:** ![Schoggi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@Schoggi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schoggi)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/31 "2017-04-25T23:19:19Z")
What a kindergarten-level chain of discussion. You don’t like “how a word sounds” of something that doesn’t happen if you, you know, wash yourself like any civilized person does? I don’t like sweat, should I mummify my future child? @Ambivalid > **[Masturbation Taboo and the Rise of Routine Male Circumcision: A Review of the...](https://academic.oup.com/jsh/article-abstract/36/3/737/948642/The-Masturbation-Taboo-and-the-Rise-of-Routine?redirectedFrom=fulltext)** > > Robert Darby; The Masturbation Taboo and the Rise of Routine Male Circumcision: A Review of the Historiography, Journal of Social History, Volume 36, Issue 3, 1 > **[Why Is Circumcision So Popular in America?](https://matthewtontonoz.com/2015/01/05/why-is-circumcision-so-popular-in-america/)** > > This article was published January 5, 2015. The recent decision by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to endorse circumcision as a prophylactic measure against disease has on… ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/32 "2017-04-25T23:20:29Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I can sum up why I’m glad I was circumcised with one word: smegma. Eww, no. So much this! > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Something that would be barely noticeable if you wash regularly. Same as women that wash their labia regularly. Kind of kills the moment when you get home after a lovely evening with your sweetheart. Things start to get intimate, then the guy has to stop and say: “Hold on honey while I go wash off my dick.” Screw that noise! ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/33 "2017-04-25T23:22:10Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > As for lost sensitivity, that is really hard to gauge. I mean, most men who have been circumcised, had it done at a very early age and have no way to compare. I do not feel cheated, as it were, that it was done to me. You don’t feel cheated because as you say, you have nothing to compare it to. Other people also have nothing to compare it to and do feel cheated of knowing what sexual pleasure would feel like had someone else not make the decision for them around birth to cut off their foreskin. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/34 "2017-04-25T23:26:46Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Kind of kills the moment when you get home after a lovely evening with your sweetheart. Things start to get intimate, then the guy has to stop and say: “Hold on honey while I go wash off my dick.” > > Screw that noise! If he keeps it clean regularly, it isn’t necessarily the case that he would have to clean it upon coming home from work. Again, it’s the same with the case of a woman not necessarily having to wash her labia before having sex upon coming home from work. It’s also possible to “freshen up” without making announcements that almost sound designed to turn of your partner. ---
**Author:** ![Schoggi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@Schoggi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schoggi)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/35 "2017-04-25T23:27:44Z")
Psychological bias and sunk investment/Stockholm syndrome at work. Men that justify infant genital cutting because they don’t want to wash before having sex after coming home from work. I think that’s the lowest I’ve read in a long time. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/36 "2017-04-25T23:29:47Z")
^ You must be new here. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/37 "2017-04-25T23:40:13Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > If he keeps it clean regularly, it isn’t necessarily the case that he would have to clean it upon coming home from work. I don’t know why, but I read the post I was replying to as a man coming home from work. It was regarding coming home after a lovely evening with your sweetheart. Most evenings such as that are preceded by a shower. If a man has dick cheese that shortly after showering, he should get checked out. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/38 "2017-04-25T23:44:16Z")
> [@Schoggi](#): > > What a kindergarten-level chain of discussion. You don’t like “how a word sounds” of something that doesn’t happen if you, you know, wash yourself like any civilized person does? I don’t like sweat, should I mummify my future child? Lighten up Francis. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/39 "2017-04-25T23:50:14Z")
Even though many forms of FGM can be worse than male circumcision, the former does not justify the latter, nor the latter the former and if one is OK then both are OK, if one is not OK then neither are OK. Such a thing should be a free will adult decision, not done on a child by the desire of their guardians. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/40 "2017-04-25T23:55:27Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > and if one is OK then both are OK, if one is not OK then neither are OK. No, it doesn’t work that way. It is _possible_ that one is more beneficial than harmful (it’s OK) and that the other is more harmful than beneficial (not OK). Some forms of FGM are without a doubt less OK than male circumcision. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238.md?page=3)