# Is Male Circumcision Just as Bad as Female Genital Mutilation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238 "2017-04-25T19:14:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/81 "2017-04-26T04:44:08Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Which means when I mention discussing what YOU brought up, you can’t claim with a straight face that I am at fault for not sticking to the thread topic. I have no idea what you’re saying any more but you seem hellbent on not comparing male circumcision to FGM, including the medical benefits of each (or lack thereof) so, uh, have fun I guess. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/82 "2017-04-26T05:12:06Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Oh, sorry. I thought it had been done by Jews for centuries and had been the default practice in the USA for decades. Oh sorry, I didn’t realize Jewish customs=Western customs. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/83 "2017-04-26T05:25:52Z")
> [@Schoggi](#): > > The question should be “Should we remove a part of a normal penis in a child?” and the answer can only be no. You’d think every european and chinese and japanese boy is full of terrible infections and in pain and suffering from these threads. It’s very simple: You operate on a body part if it’s defective in some way (infection or phimosis). Not before, not prophylactically. The “benefits” are ridiculous in that they concern STDs which can be prevented, as in any country with sane pediatricians, with safe sex practices which should be used anyway because a “lesser risk of getting HIV” doesn’t prevent anybody from still getting HIV, OR herpes, OR hepatitis, OR gonorrhea, or syphilis. Or they concern penile cancer which, again, is a joke of a justification, because it hardly ever occurs and because you don’t amputate a girl’s breasts because her mother had breast cancer. What remains? “Hygiene”? I.e. water and soap? You’ve mentioned this idea in several posts. You clearly have no idea of what goes on around you. For instance, some women DO, in fact, chose to have their breasts surgically removed. > [@](#): > > In hopes of avoiding future disease, some women at very high risk of developing breast cancer elect to have both breasts surgically removed, a procedure called bilateral prophylactic mastectomy or preventive mastectomy. The surgery aims to remove all breast tissue that potentially could develop breast cancer. > > Preventive breast cancer surgery also may be considered if a woman has already had breast cancer and is therefore at increased risk for developing the disease again in either breast. A preventive mastectomy might also be considered if the woman has the BRCA1 or BRCA2 genetic mutation that increases risk of breast cancer, a strong family history of breast cancer, or atypical lobular hyperplasia or lobular carcinoma in situ (LCIS). > **[Preventive Mastectomy for Breast Cancer](https://www.webmd.com/breast-cancer/preventive-mastectomy)** > > WebMD explains the risks and benefits of preventive mastectomy -- the removal of one or both breasts to avoid developing breast cancer. There is serious discussion about preventative surgeries, such as appendectomies, for astronauts. > [@](#): > > This article explores the potential benefits and defined risks associated with prophylactic surgical procedures for astronauts before extended-duration space flight. This includes, but is not limited to, appendectomy and cholecystesctomy. > **[Prophylactic surgery prior to extended-duration space flight: Is the benefit...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3310768/)** > > This article explores the potential benefits and defined risks associated with prophylactic surgical procedures for astronauts before extended-duration space flight. This includes, but is not limited to, appendectomy and cholecystesctomy.... The same with certain key people who spend lots of time in Antarctica. > [@](#): > > One of the most common questions people ask is, do expeditioners need to have their appendix removed before going south? The answer is no, however doctors who are wintering at Australian Antarctic stations are required to have their appendix removed. > **[Do you need your appendix removed before you go? – Australian Antarctic Program](https://www.antarctica.gov.au/about-antarctica/people-in-antarctica/health/)** > > Do expeditioners need to have their appendix removed before going south? Learn about health in Australia's Antarctic and sub-Antarctic research stations. > [@TruCelt](#): > > I’m firmly in the camp of “Unnecessary slicing is barbaric.” I really think even religious justification should be overruled on this one. If a religious person wants to have this cutting done, to a point they can be allowed to do so as an elective surgery when they turn 18. But cutting babies and children is barbaric. Cutting in unsanitary conditions is barbaric. Saying "But the special holy man licked the knife"is barbaric. > > We. Know. Better. Now. > > There is no need to continue practices that began before the availability of indoor plumbing. Define “unnecessary.” See above for possible examples. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/84 "2017-04-26T08:55:38Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > BTW, Schoggi, that “natural lube” is why most women prefer cut men. FWIW, most gay men prefer uncut men, regardless of the type of sex they engage in. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/85 "2017-04-26T09:06:49Z")
I got junior a class 5 and replaced his glans with a silver bullet vibrator. Now my wife sits on \*his \*lap! ---
**Author:** ![JacobSwan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@JacobSwan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacobSwan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/86 "2017-04-26T10:00:14Z")
This is becoming an emotional issue here in the UK too and there are minor side effects. A friend of mine is in her 40’s and has never orgasmed in her life and has never been able to find her own clitoris. She asked me, as a friend, to take a look and I discovered that her hood was totally enclosed. There was no opening at all to allow the clitoris to be reached. Either she had been born that way, or had been injured at some point and it had healed closed. This is often caused by childhood bicycle accidents for instance. I told her to see a doctor and ask if they could somehow snip it open for her. The doctor refused as there was no infection or other medical need for the surgery and it was too similar to type 1a FGM. If he does it for her then he would have to do it for everyone was his argument. I’m not sure if the doctor was following official guidelines, or was just trying to cover his back. But it left my friend frustrated in more ways than one! ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/87 "2017-04-26T10:02:07Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > … For instance, **some women DO, in fact, chose** to have their breasts surgically removed… The part in bold is the important part of that and every other example you gave. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/88 "2017-04-26T14:16:06Z")
> [@JacobSwan](#): > > . > > I told her to see a doctor and ask if they could somehow snip it open for her. The doctor refused as there was no infection or other medical need for the surgery and it was too similar to type 1a FGM. If he does it for her then he would have to do it for everyone was his argument. > > I’m not sure if the doctor was following official guidelines, or was just trying to cover his back. But it left my friend frustrated in more ways than one! Now, this is a case of going to the absurd opposite extreme. We have an informed consenting adult denied a voluntary body modification due to concern about “then I’ll have to do it for everyone else”. Damn. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/89 "2017-04-26T19:04:09Z")
The question isn’t whether male circumcision is “just as bad” as FGM. It’s obvious that removal of the glans clitoris, or infibulation, is worse than male circumcision. The question is why any type of FGM, even Type 1a, is an abomination that shuld spark rage and disgust, while an analogous procedure performed on boys is something that should be encouraged. Anatomically, those two procedures couldn’t be more similar given the differences between sexes. And the most extreme form of FGM, infibulation, is only about 10% of the instances of FGM. 90% of FGM is less extreme procedures, some of which actually are accepted in the Western world provided it happens in a cosmetic clinic. Like removal of the clitoral hood (FGM Type 1a), or trimming of the labia minora (FGM Type 2a). For some weird reason, male circumcision is the norm in the USA (as opposed to the rest of the indstrialized world outside Jewish and Muslim communities). There are strong indications that the procedure was introduced to control male sexuality, as a means to reduce masturbation, as has been shown upthread. So the original motivation to remove little boys’ foreskins was exactly the same as what’s claimed to be the reason for FGM. So why on Earth is any kind of FGM totally wrong, while male genital mutilation is totally right? There’s just no logic there. What’s really interesting to see in this thread, is that the arguments for male circumcision are more or less exactly the same as those used to argue for FGM. Think about that for a while. If male circumcision is just fine because “most women prefer cut men” (which is totally wrong if you travel outside the USA, and probably only because American women are used to seeing cut penises as the normal state), why shouldn’t someone cut girls because most men - in that region - prefer cut women? If male circumcision is a good thing because someone doesn’t know how to wash and end up with a dong covered in smegma, what should you say to women who say that they’re neater and cleaner when they’re cut? It’s exactly the same argument. If you worry about your uncut SO having to go out to wash up immediately before sexy time, why don’t you worry about your own parts? A normal vulva has a lot more nooks and crannies than even an intact penis has, and it has the same type of sebaceous glands as the penis has. If your partner has no issues going down on you even if you haven’t douched during the last five minutes before sexy time, your disgust towards an uncut man who hasn’t washed during the last five minutes before sexy time is totally irrational. Yes, cut men generally self-report that they have a satisfying sex life. Good for them. But claiming that a circumcision doesn’t affect sensitivity is, frankly, bull. The most sensitive part of a penis is the foreskin. The inside of the foreskin is significantly more sensitive than even the glans penis. A cut man has lost about the area of a credit card’s worth of the most sensitive part of his penis. While he may well experience a satisfying sex life - particularly since almost every cut man lacks comparative data - the most sensitive part of his penis has been surgically removed. That’s a solid fact. And about whether or not that affects the sensory experience? You do the math. So no, male circumcision isn’t “just as bad” as any type of FGM. Of course it isn’t. But it’s not only “just as bad” as the least invasive form of FGM (Type 1a), it’s exactly the same. So the point isn’t how bad one or the other is, the point is that vehemently defending cutting off parts of little boys’ penises when they’re unable to give informed consent, while at the same time frothing at the mouth at any type of surgical alteration of little girls’ vulvas when they’re unable to give informed consent is illogical. What competent adults choose to voluntarily do with their own body is completely irrelevant to whether or not it’s a good thing to cut off parts of the sexual organs of small children. If you as an adult male choose to have your foreskin surgically removed for hygienic, aesthetic or other reasons, by all means. If you as an adult woman choose to have your clitoral hood and/or parts of your labia minora surgically removed for hygienic, aesthetic or other reasons, by all means. But don’t go around defending cutting off parts of little boys’ penises while at the same time going ballistic over someone else cutting off any little part of little girls’ vulvas. It isn’t logical and it just makes you look stupid. [Female genital mutilation (FGM) and male circumcision: should there be a separate ethical discourse? Practical ethics blog, University of Oxford](http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2014/02/female-genital-mutilation-and-male-circumcision-time-to-confront-the-double-standard/) [Earp B.D. (2015): Female genital mutilation and male circumcision: toward an autonomy-based ethical framework, Medicolegal and Bioethics 5, 89-104](https://www.dovepress.com/female-genital-mutilation-and-male-circumcision-toward-an-autonomy-bas-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-MB) [Earp, B.D. (2016): Between Moral Relativism and Moral Hypocrisy: Reframing the Debate on “FGM”, Kennedy Institute of Ethics Journal 26(2) 105-144](https://muse.jhu.edu/article/622485) (paywall protected) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/90 "2017-04-26T19:55:59Z")
I was circumcised at birth. When we adopted the Firebug at the age of a year and a half, he was uncircumcised, and we didn’t see any point in having him circumcised. I’ve been quite happy throughout my life with the degree of sexual pleasure I experience. Can’t speak for the kid; he’s only 9 years old, so he may or may not have learned to play with himself. So in general, my attitude towards male circumcision is :shrug: . But this practice has been going on for millennia in male-dominated societies, so I think the one thing we can be sure of is that if circumcision is a negative from the standpoint of male pleasure, it isn’t much of one, otherwise the practice would have died out generations ago. There’s no successful conspiracy to deny men the pleasure that’s our birthright. But at many times, male-dominated societies have been perfectly OK with doing that to women. And unless the practice of female circumcision takes place in hospitals rather than being part of religious rituals (as male circumcision is in Judaism, and female circumcision is in many parts of the Islamic world), who’s to say they stop at Type 1A circumcision? If there was an ironclad guarantee that that’s always the case, well maybe. But in the absence of it, ISTM that it’s better to simply not allow female circumcision at all. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/91 "2017-04-26T20:11:07Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > What’s really interesting to see in this thread, is that the arguments for male circumcision are more or less exactly the same as those used to argue for FGM. Think about that for a while. They are? Who is arguing for FGM on the basis of medical studies showing a notable benefit and on the opinion of medical associations? Neonatal circumcision results in more health benefits and fewer complications than adult circumcision so there is a pronounced reason for parents to make this decision (like they make so many health decisions) on the behalf of their child. In fact, there has been studies suggesting that adult circumcision may _increase_ the risk of penile cancer (rather than virtually eliminating it as neonatal circumcision does) although most men who opt for it later in life do so for immediate medical reasons that outweigh those risks. Still, saying “Oh, just have him decide it when he’s older” misses the mark. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > So in general, my attitude towards male circumcision is :shrug: Generally speaking, male circumcision is one of those topics where one side is extremely passionate and the other side is pretty much “Eh, do it or don’t; I don’t care.” It’s not as though there’s a huge contingent of people demanding circumcision for everyone. As a result, these sorts of debates grind down in a lopsided manner. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/92 "2017-04-26T21:50:32Z")
Have to ask… If you aren’t Jewish, why are you circumcising? as for the main question of the thread, i don’t see the two being mutually comparable regardless of how you look at it. One has no purpose other than to lesser the woman. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/93 "2017-04-26T21:59:08Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > Have to ask… > > If you aren’t Jewish, why are you circumcising? It’s (as you can imagine) heavily debated, but it does look like there can be some health benefits. Studies have suggested that circumcision can reduce risks of HPV and cancer, in both circumcised men, and their partners. It also looks like it may have some impact on reducing the likelihood of contracting HIV among men in Africa, though the latter probably isn’t much of an argument for having your American baby boy circumcised. It may also reduce the incidence of UTIs in baby boys. > **[Circumcision | Effects](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#Effects)** > > Human papillomavirus (HPV) is the most commonly transmitted sexually transmitted infection, affecting both men and women. While most infections are asymptomatic and are cleared by the immune system, some types of the virus cause genital warts, and other types, if untreated, cause various forms of cancer, including cervical cancer, and penile cancer. Genital warts and cervical cancer are the two most common problems resulting from HPV. > Circumcision is associated with a reduced prevalence of oncog... ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/94 "2017-04-26T22:15:08Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > Have to ask… > > If you aren’t Jewish, why are you circumcising? Who are you asking this to? Muslims also circumcise and it’s pretty popular in the US among Christians for reasons that are probably due to conformity and being like dad. > [@](#): > > as for the main question of the thread, i don’t see the two being mutually comparable regardless of how you look at it. Removal of foreskin and part or all of the clitoral hood can not be comparable regardless of how it’s looked at it? > [@](#): > > One has no purpose other than to lesser the woman. How have you determined that? Here are reasons given by Muslims that are derived from Hadith that don’t seem to have anything to do with lessening women: > [@](#): > > Many schools of thought which order the “slight trimming” of the hood of the clitoris do so in means of enhancing sexual pleasure. [http://www.islamicity.org/forum/printer\_friendly\_posts.asp?TID=8791](http://www.islamicity.org/forum/printer_friendly_posts.asp?TID=8791) > [@](#): > > When the Prophet said that it was more desirable for the husband, what he obviously meant was that he would be pleased that his wife too had attained orgasm at about the same time as him – perhaps even had multiple orgasms – and that he would not need to exert himself further to ensure she is fully satisfied. The idea here is that it is only with the removal of the clitoral prepuce that real sexual satisfaction could be realized. It is contended that the procedure enhances sexual feeling in women during the sex act since a circumcised clitoris is much more likely to be stimulated as a result of direct oral, penile or tactile contact than the uncircumcised organ whose prepuce serves as an obstacle to direct stimulation. This necessarily leads to a satisfactory sex life among women, thus ensuring their chastity. > **[Female Circumcision – The Hidden Truth | Asiff Hussein -](https://asiffhussein.com/articles/female-circumcision-the-hidden-truth/)** > > Female Circumcision An Islamic practice that brings untold benefits to women By Asiff Hussein Much has been written about female circumcision of late, with many writers confusing this Islamic practice with FGM (Female Genital Mutilation). However... That those that have the procedure done for religious reasons may also believe that it aids in sexual enhancement is not a crazy thought, as some women do have the procedure done for that reason. > [@](#): > > This vaginal rejuvenation procedure aims to reduce the size of the clitoral hood to maintain symmetry. Hoodectomy may be done in tandem with labiaplasty, especially if there is a significant or complete reduction of the inner lips (labia minora). The reduction or removal of the clitoral hood may increase the stimulation of the clitoris and intensify sexual pleasure. [http://www.yourplasticsurgeryguide.com/other-procedures/labiaplasty-procedures.htm](http://www.yourplasticsurgeryguide.com/other-procedures/labiaplasty-procedures.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/95 "2017-04-26T22:44:40Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Sure. So has the AAP, AAFP, AUA & the CDC. They all agree that the benefits outweigh the risks and that access to the procedure should be expanded even as the final decision remains that of the parents. :rolleyes: Uh, you are aware that _most_ of the men in the world are uncut, right? Not just in the shacks of Mumbai or the favelas of São Paulo, but in “rich countries” as well? Perhaps if you looked outside of the USA, you’d see that your claim of established health benefits is just a load of [horeseshit](http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/173203/european-doctors-blast-american-report-that-recomm/) promoted by mutilated men who sadly can’t even realize that they’ve lost something intrinsic and valuable to themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/96 "2017-04-26T23:55:18Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > :rolleyes: > Uh, you are aware that _most_ of the men in the world are uncut, right? Yes, and? That is alone supposed to refute something? > [@](#): > > Perhaps if you looked outside of the USA, you’d see that your claim of established health benefits is just a load of [horeseshit](http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/173203/european-doctors-blast-american-report-that-recomm/) So you feel that the combined decisions of those medical bodies are “horseshit” because thirty-eight other guys said something you like more? Well, _that’s_ certainly convincing. > [@](#): > > promoted by mutilated men who sadly can’t even realize that they’ve lost something intrinsic and valuable to themselves? The fact that this devolves into “Ignore the science because, uh, you’re just afraid to admit it!” speaks volumes. You, erm, have it on concrete authority that all the people involved in the AAP, AAFP, AUA, CDC, NIH, etc decisions were neonatally circumcised men, I take it? Since that’s central to your theory? From the article: > [@](#): > > About half of the European physicians are from Scandinavian countries, where several political parties have stated their opposition to circumcision as a form of “child abuse,” **or unwanted phenomenon of immigration by Muslims**. Hey, as long as we’re just throwing out ham-handed appeals to emotion, maybe all those physicians are just racist and they’re ignoring the studies in favor of just hating Muslims. But you’ll never admit it because you’re brainwashed and yadda yadda I have no arguments but making up emotional appeals is just as good yadda… ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/97 "2017-04-27T00:09:17Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > :rolleyes: > Uh, you are aware that _most_ of the men in the world are uncut, right? Not just in the shacks of Mumbai or the favelas of São Paulo, but in “rich countries” as well? Perhaps if you looked outside of the USA, you’d see that your claim of established health benefits is just a load of [horeseshit](http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/173203/european-doctors-blast-american-report-that-recomm/) promoted by mutilated men who sadly can’t even realize that they’ve lost something intrinsic and valuable to themselves? Just to let you know, as one of the mutilated men, I take the obnoxious pity offered by those like you and SlackerInc with a chuckle and an eye roll. You sound like my my Mom when she found out I got a tattoo. It’s not that big a deal, Mom. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/98 "2017-04-27T00:18:10Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Just to let you know, as one of the mutilated men, I take the obnoxious pity offered by those like you and SlackerInc with a chuckle and an eye roll. It almost feels as though they worry more about my dong than I do. The AAP [had a response](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/131/4/801) to the guys from Europe. Amusingly, they point out that the US has a ~50% circumcision rate versus the much lower rate in Europe (unless you’re Jewish or Muslim) so, if anyone is affected by cultural bias, it probably isn’t them: > [@](#): > > All of the commentary authors hail from Europe, where the vast majority of men are uncircumcised and the cultural norm clearly favors the uncircumcised penis. In contrast, approximately half of US males are circumcised, and half are not. Although that heterogeneity may lead to a more tolerant view toward circumcision in the United States than in Europe, the cultural “bias” in the United States is much more likely to be a neutral one than that found in Europe, where there is a clear bias against circumcision. Yet, the commentary’s authors have, at no point, recognized that their own cultural bias may exist in equal, if not greater, measure than any cultural bias that might exist among the members of the AAP Task Force on Circumcision. If cultural bias influences the review of available evidence, then a culture that is comfortable with both the circumcised penis and the uncircumcised penis would seem predisposed to a more dispassionate analysis of the scientific literature than a culture with a bias that is either strongly opposed to circumcision or strongly in favor of it. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/99 "2017-04-27T00:57:54Z")
> [@Schoggi](#): > > What a kindergarten-level chain of discussion. You don’t like “how a word sounds” of something that doesn’t happen if you, you know, wash yourself like any civilized person does? I don’t like sweat, should I mummify my future child? > > @Ambivalid > [https://academic.oup.com/jsh/article-abstract/36/3/737/948642/The-Masturbation-Taboo-and-the-Rise-of-Routine?redirectedFrom=fulltext](https://academic.oup.com/jsh/article-abstract/36/3/737/948642/The-Masturbation-Taboo-and-the-Rise-of-Routine?redirectedFrom=fulltext) > [Why Is Circumcision So Popular in America? | Matthew Tontonoz](https://matthewtontonoz.com/2015/01/05/why-is-circumcision-so-popular-in-america/) In re to you cites: I didn’t have access to the article in the first but it was the same source as in your second cite, which I’ve quoted below: Quote: "As medical historian David Gollaher shows in his engaging book Circumcision: A History of the World’s Most Controversial Surgery, the American medical fascination with the procedure can be traced to the enthusiasm of a New York-based orthopedic surgeon named Lewis Sayre. In the 1870s, Dr. Sayre—who would go on to become president of the American Medical Association—developed a theory about the value of circumcision in treating muscle paralysis. **…Sayre’s intervention, which he first performed on a 5-year-old boy suffering from leg paralysis, was the beginning of the American medical appropriation of what had been a primarily religious ritual**. What Sayre began, other physicians continued with gusto. Circumcision was used to treat conditions as varied as asthma, epilepsy, hernia, and indigestion. **When reflex neurosis eventually fell out of medical fashion as an explanation for illness, other uses were found for the procedure. Increasingly, doctors said circumcision could prevent a number of conditions, including venereal diseases like syphilis and gonorrhea, _masturbation_, and cancer.**" (my bolding and italicization) Your cites show that treatment for muscle paralysis was how circumcision first gained widespread popularity in American medicine. The masturbation angle doesn’t come into play until later on, as the original reasons for circumcision fell out of medical fashion. And it’s only mentioned among many other reasons used to justify it. I don’t think these cites support your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/100 "2017-04-27T01:41:35Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The part in bold is the important part of that and every other example you gave. Were you born with that ability to miss the point, or did you learn it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238.md?page=6)