# Is Male Circumcision Just as Bad as Female Genital Mutilation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238 "2017-04-25T19:14:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/141 "2017-04-27T14:29:57Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > I cannot, My Lord, for I fear I am still on my hands and knees thanking you for your [keen insight](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20162543&postcount=14) regarding the inferiority of the uncircumcised. I have seen the Light and it has but One Eye! That was a very keen insight but really doesn’t compare to finding child torture bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/142 "2017-04-27T15:31:49Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Ask them, I guess. I don’t have to make up reasons for them and I’m not interested in mandating anything. If you want to say the existing research is wrong, that’s on you to prove rather than “This guy wasn’t circumcised so you’re wrong!” or “You must be brainwashed because of America!” > > What’s interesting is that this stance by the US organizations (and organizations such as the WHO) is a fairly new one. For all the theories of cultural pressure, they have consistently remained neutral on the topic until the 2000’s. But, rather than assume the most likely – new information has shifted their stance from neutral to neutral-positive – you rely on an assumption that some wave of (new?) cultural pressure has forced their hand. You know, it’s kind of funny. This board is normally quite science- and reason-friendly. But there are a few issues where there is a massive blind spot, and this is one of them. You and your dick-slicing proponents are the ones who bear the burden of proof, not I. To recap: The healthy, non-deformed human male is born with a foreskin attached to his penis. This state of affairs has prevailed for untold millennia, and continues to be the norm for the majority of humanity. There are only two large groupings of people today who promote the practice of male circumcision: Muslims and North Americans. The former do so on religious grounds, so reason has no place in that debate. However, Americans assert that this practice is beneficial on _scientific_ grounds. This group is the one who bears the burden of _proving_ (not implying, insinuating, or suggesting) that this practice is beneficial. It is _not_ up to the rest of us to prove that this stupid practice isn’t necessary. That’s on you. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/143 "2017-04-27T15:34:45Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That was a very keen insight but really doesn’t compare to finding child torture bizarre. Not sure from your comment there - are you a fan or not of child torture? Speaking personally, I don’t find the genital mutilation (not “torture” - that’s your word) of either boys or girls to be laudatory. And, seeing as this is GD, you wouldn’t happen to have a citation for that “keen insight” of yours, would you? (One not limited to a database of merely American women, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/144 "2017-04-27T16:12:47Z")
Torture was not my word. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/145 "2017-04-27T16:14:42Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > You know, it’s kind of funny. This board is normally quite science- and reason-friendly. But there are a few issues where there is a massive blind spot, and this is one of them. You and your dick-slicing proponents are the ones who bear the burden of proof, not I. No, not really. There’s a bunch of studies. There’s board recommendations. You’re saying that these are illegitimate. You’re welcome to provide evidence of this. You’re not welcome to put the burden on me to prove their legitimacy to you and set yourself as the arbiter or whether they’re correct or not. That said, you’re the one who wants the practice to change. I honestly don’t give a shit if no one in Europe is ever circumcised again. Really. Makes zero difference to me. You, on the other hand, seem to care a good deal if the practice continues in the United States. So it’s up to you to make an argument for why I should listen to you and not the existing research and opinions of medical boards since you’re the one who wishes to effect change. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/146 "2017-04-27T16:52:24Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Torture was not my word. Wasn’t mine, either. Oh - still waiting on that supporting evidence for your “keen insight”… ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/147 "2017-04-27T16:58:12Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Wasn’t mine, either. But you said it was my word and it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/148 "2017-04-27T17:06:13Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > No, not really. There’s a bunch of studies. There’s board recommendations. The very first sentence from your (singular) citation: _“New scientific evidence shows the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks of the procedure, but the benefits are not great enough to recommend routine circumcision for all newborn boys, according to an updated policy statement published by the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP).”_ So even your authoritative source doesn’t recommend the procedure as routine, unlike, say MMR immunizations. > [@](#): > > You’re saying that these are illegitimate. No, I’m saying they’re _insufficient_. There’s a difference. > [@](#): > > You’re welcome to provide evidence of this. No, I don’t have to. I’m going with the null hypothesis on this one. > [@](#): > > You’re not welcome to put the burden on me to prove their legitimacy to you and set yourself as the arbiter or whether they’re correct or not. And you’re not welcome to massage the findings to meet some level of statistical significance which they do not reach, and pass it off as scientific consensus. > [@](#): > > That said, you’re the one who wants the practice to change. Sure, it’d be nice if Americans didn’t routinely mutilate their kids’ genitals. It’d also be nice if they didn’t do a lot of stupid shit, but it’s no big deal to me. I don’t live in the US anymore. I spent my first 35 years in that dystopic madhouse and escaped at the soonest opportunity. > [@](#): > > I honestly don’t give a shit if no one in Europe is ever circumcised again. Really. Makes zero difference to me. You, on the other hand, seem to care a good deal if the practice continues in the United States. No, what I care about is when Americans try to promote their bullshit agendas to the rest of the world. We Euros live longer than you - maybe US medicine/healthcare isn’t actually the pinnacle of Man’s ascent from ignorance? > [@](#): > > So it’s up to you to make an argument for why I should listen to you and not the existing research and opinions of medical boards since you’re the one who wishes to effect change. You Americans keep doing stupid shit, I’ll keep commenting on it. Do what you like to your children. Never change! ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/149 "2017-04-27T17:07:17Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > But you said it was my word and it wasn’t. Oh, for fuck’s sake. YOU were the one who first used it in our extended exchange, not I. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/150 "2017-04-27T17:37:31Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Do what you like to your children. Never change! Cool. Glad that’s settled 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/151 "2017-04-27T18:31:37Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Oh, for fuck’s sake. YOU were the one who first used it in our extended exchange, not I. I was quoting someone else. Not my word. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/152 "2017-04-27T19:51:24Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Eh? what point have I missed? > > Regardless of whether your position in general is pro or anti my statement stands on its own as a reinforcement of adult choice. I don’t know how you’ve chosen to interpret my post but you are clearly in error as a simple re-reading by anyone will show. You missed the point because “adult choice” is NOT what **Schoggi** was talking about. I would tell you to re-read his posts, but I’ve found the hard way that such a tactic doesn’t work on this board–people have to be beaten over the head with the point, because even on this board, an awful lot of people are too stupid to actually think and/or pay attention. Post #13– **Schoggi** says, “you don’t amputate a girl’s breasts because her mother had breast cancer.” And I responded by citing a practice that yes, in fact, we DO do that. Post #42–he says, “Do you propose cutting out babies’ appendices and breasts as well since both appendicitis and breast cancer do occur and can actually be fatal?” He repeats that idea in post #60. I responded by citing proof that under certain conditions we do in fact perform precautionary appendectomies on healthy people. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/153 "2017-04-27T20:04:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I was quoting someone else. Not my word. Now this… THIS… this is _truly_ the stuff of which Great Debates are made… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/154 "2017-04-27T20:20:18Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > You missed the point because “adult choice” is NOT what **Schoggi** was talking about. I agree. Which is why it seems that it is you that missed the point. > [@](#): > > Post #13– **Schoggi** says, “you don’t amputate a girl’s breasts because her mother had breast cancer.” And I responded by citing a practice that yes, in fact, we DO do that. That’s not what you did. As you said, adult choice is NOT what **Schoggi** was talking about. “You don’t amputate a **girl** ’s breasts” is not regarding a woman and it’s clear he is talking about making a choice for someone underage when read in context. His paragraph started with “Should we remove a part of a normal penis in a child?” He’s clearly comparing mammary tissue in a child to a child’s foreskin. The relevant part of your response: _“For instance, some women DO, in fact, chose to have their breasts surgically removed.”_ Yeah, women. > [@](#): > > Post #42–he says, “Do you propose cutting out babies’ appendices and breasts as well since both appendicitis and breast cancer do occur and can actually be fatal?” He repeats that idea in post #60. I responded by citing proof that under certain conditions we do in fact perform precautionary appendectomies on healthy people. Doctors who are wintering at Australian Antarctic stations. Do you really think that helps to better answer the question of whether or not babies should have their appendices removed prophylactically? What point do you think you scored here? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/155 "2017-04-27T20:49:01Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Now this… THIS… this is _truly_ the stuff of which Great Debates are made… :rolleyes: Don’t blame me. You started it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/156 "2017-04-27T20:50:05Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Are people walking around with shit-stained trousers and moustaches cakes with snot? What’s so difficult about basic hygeine? my son has Asperger’s Syndrome. One of the things which is a problem for those who have that is poor hygiene. My wife made the decision to circumcise our son before I was in the picture (I’m technically stepdad) but she is very glad she made the decision if nothing else for that. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/157 "2017-04-27T22:10:47Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > You missed the point because “adult choice” is NOT what **Schoggi** was talking about. And you miss the point because I was not replying to, nor backing-up **Schoggi’s** point. If I were I would have clearly said so. “Adult choice” was the key element in the examples of preventative procedures you gave. Did I mention **Schoggi?** , did I reference **Schoggi?** , did I did I strongly back them or speak in conflict with you? No, I merely highlighted the “adult choice” aspect of the given examples. You jumped to an incorrect conclusion, If I had a stronger point to make directly to you or \*\*Schoggi \*\*you’d be left in no doubt about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/158 "2017-04-27T23:46:05Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > (as male circumcision is in Judaism, and female circumcision is in many parts of the Islamic world) Few parts of the islamic world, few. We share the tradition of the male circumsion with the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238/159 "2017-04-28T00:12:32Z")
**ENOUGH!** > [@Flyer](#): > > Were you born with that ability to miss the point, or did you learn it? > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Hypocrite. > [@Fuji](#): > > Or to put it in terms you might understand: > > USA! USA! USA! > > . . . > What _theory_, you weirdo? The last page and a half has been nothing but stupid taunts about what others believe with a significant lack of actual evidence for any position offered. The three quotes cited are Warnable offenses, but the thread has not had enough serious discussion, recently, to bother. I am shutting this down as a waste of my time to monitor it. I realize that this is an emotional topic, but if you cannot conduct a serious discussion without resorting to insults, open the next thread in The BBQ Pit. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-male-circumcision-just-as-bad-as-female-genital-mutilation/785238.md?page=7)