# Is man a meat-eater or a vegetarian by nature? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2012, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381 "2012-01-13T11:12:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/81 "2012-01-24T17:28:24Z")
You parrot ridiculous and nonscientific claims, like talking about “leaky gut syndrome”. For those of you unaware, this is a contentious alt med condition that claims a variety of causes make the junctions between the cells of the intestinal walls open up, allowing waste materials and infectious agents into the bloodstream. > **[Leaky gut syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_gut_syndrome)** > > Leaky gut syndrome is a hypothetical and medically unrecognized condition that is distinct from the scientific phenomenon of increased intestinal permeability commonly known as "leaky gut". Claims for the existence of "leaky gut syndrome" as a distinct medical condition come mostly from nutritionists and practitioners of alternative medicine. Proponents claim that a "leaky gut" causes chronic inflammation throughout the body that results in a wide range of conditions, includi Stephen Barrett has ... Um, yeah, I’m not convinced. > [@gluten\_free](#): > > i am not the author of the studies cited; is there some reason you preferred to follow up with me, rather than go where the data emanated from, which I referrenced 4 u? Thats rhetorical… Yes, the reason we “prefer” to follow up with you is that you are the one coming _here_ to promote these claims, it is up to you to support them. It is not required for us to go chase down the relevant information on other sites or in books and argue with the authors of those materials. If you cannot provide clear, appropriate citations, then we are not likely to be convinced that your arguments have any merit. It’s that simple. You keep making the claims, it’s up to you to defend them. If you can’t, you aren’t going to convince anyone. > [@gluten\_free](#): > > if u work 4 the wheat farmers of america federated, or a drs office unsupportive of the cited research, that is part way 2 explaining opposition 2 the supplied data, u requested… What explains the “opposition” you are seeing is a healthy skepticism of some random internet posting that makes strange and extreme claims. It is the same healthy skepticism that keeps one from replying to that poor prince from Nigeria who can’t get his inheritance unless some stranger in the United States (or the UK, or Europe, or Australia, or really anywhere else) will just send some cash money to pay for some paperwork to allow him to use your bank account. > [@gluten\_free](#): > > not going 2 repeat my reasons 4 typing this way; 4 all u know, i might come from a long line of codetalkers in the tradition of the Lakota tribe… No one is forcing you to come here and post. No one is _forcing_ you to type full words and sentences. But be aware that most of us do not feel your communication style is worth the bother of trying to interpret. Most of us are going to dismiss you as a poster before looking at what you are saying, because you can’t be bothered to communicate clearly and conventionally. So you can choose to post how you like, but understand the ramifications of that are likely going to be instant dismissal and ignoring you. > [@gluten\_free](#): > > unless u r calling the national institutes of health ignorant &/or biased on THIS subject (gluten), for supporting the data ive supplied…in which case I suggest u take that up with them… Please cite the National Institutes of Health and where they agree that gluten is a neurotoxin, or that gluten is dangerous to any but the specific few with special sensitivities and allergies. > [@Princhester](#): > > And (to get back to the OP for a moment) really the answer to whether or not we are meat eaters can be derived the same way. Except for a vanishingly small percentage of vegetarians, people the world over eat meat. So we are meat eaters. Attempting to change this answer by introducing fuzzy concepts like what we “should” be or what we may have been in the past is not a way to derive an objective answer. Except the question being asked is not “do humans eat meat?”, which the obvious answer is that yes, many do. The question being asked has some nebulous qualifier about is it _natural_ for humans to eat meat. The question is trying to in some way determine an innate and historical basis for our current meat eating proclivities. The fuzzy concepts are the heart of the question. ---
**Author:** ![gluten\_free](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@gluten\_free](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluten_free)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/82 "2012-01-24T18:04:27Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > _Mon Mon Mon Mon Mon_ Crrrrrunchable! > > -XT …don’t 4get chewy, marketable, popular, prevalent, common, tasty, profitable, harmful… ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/83 "2012-01-24T18:19:19Z")
**gluten free** , since you won’t do it I did it for you (you do know how to use Google, I assume?). I suspect when you are talking about NIH you are referring to cites such as [NDDIC Celiac Disease](http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/celiac/), since that is an NIH site. Care to tell me where in that site (or any other NIH site) it says gluten is a neurotoxin? Care to tell me where it says gluten in those \*\*without \*\*Celiac disease causes diabetes and various autoimmune diseases? (Note the sentence that says “The connection between celiac disease and these diseases may be genetic.”) Trust me - you really do guarantee that people will pay \*\*much \*\*less attention to any legitimate arguments you may have (not saying you do or don’t have any) when you type crap like “…actually which r unrel8d 2 content, u bother 2 read thru…” because it is extremely distracting to read. ---
**Author:** ![gluten\_free](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@gluten\_free](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluten_free)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/84 "2012-01-24T20:25:41Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > **gluten free** , since you won’t do it I did it for you (you do know how to use Google, I assume?). I suspect when you are talking about NIH you are referring to cites such as [NDDIC Celiac Disease](http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/celiac/), since that is an NIH site. > > Trust me - you really do guarantee that people will. i never trust any1 saying ‘trust me’. the NIH is whom directed us 2 the advocate rep 4 the 1 site i referred u 2 out of the kindness of my heart & genuine concern,it was the NIH whom linked us there, then the other, whom linked us with these published resrarchers…it is not authored so much as COMPILED verified correct info. & 4GET sara lee, gen’l mills, nabisco, ,there r pizza places, beer distribution places, pastarias, bakeries of gluten origins where i m about as popular/ equivalent 2 a jesus supporter @ an atheist convention…u r not alone in your disdain 4 me & the data i refer 2. i m not a researcher, attorney, nor a masochist, so…this is my final answer 2 criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/85 "2012-01-24T20:32:11Z")
> [@gluten\_free](#): > > the NIH is whom directed us 2 the advocate rep 4 the 1 site i referred u 2 out of the kindness of my heart & genuine concern,it was the NIH whom linked us there, then the other, whom linked us with these published resrarchers…it is not authored so much as COMPILED verified correct info. I have no idea what you just said. Please post in English. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/86 "2012-01-24T20:37:23Z")
> [@gluten\_free](#): > > r u a vegetarian angry with me 4 suggesting an omnivorous diet earlier, or just attacking me because u can? I m not impressed…& yes, i m brave, thank u 4 noticing. No, I like meat, and plants, including wheat. And I’m not particularly upset, as although I find the crusade against gluten as the root of all evil to be harmful pseudoscience, your poor communication skills make you an ineffective misinformant. Now as a big consumer of wheat, it would be really important for me to be informed if there was some good evidence against consuming gluten for more than the relative minority with celiac disease (diagnosed or otherwise), but I genuinely find your sources to be worthless. They’re part of a hype where people who profit from said hype or are converts to the hype prop each other up and serve as each others sources, while the underlying science is poor to non-existent. If you’d actually researched the scientific basis of your belief in the evil of gluten, a major part of western diet for centuries, you would have a leg to stand on in the environment of the Straight Dope, but you keep reinforcing our judgement that you’re not knowledgeable about what constitutes good scientific evidence. ---
**Author:** ![gluten\_free](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@gluten\_free](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluten_free)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/87 "2012-01-24T20:41:22Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > And vege/meat r 2 bd 2. > > -XT a star wars fan? don’t 4get C3P0… veggies & fruit, meats in unproccessed form/no added ingredients= gluten free;) ---
**Author:** ![gluten\_free](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@gluten\_free](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluten_free)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/88 "2012-01-24T20:50:26Z")
> [@naita](#): > > No, I like meat, and plants, including wheat. And I’m not particularly upset, as although I find the crusade against gluten as the root of all evil to be harmful pseudoscience, your poor communication skills make you an ineffective misinformant. > > Now as a big consumer of wheat, it would be really important for me to be informed if there was some good evidence against consuming gluten for more than the relative minority with celiac disease (diagnosed or otherwise), but I genuinely find your sources to be worthless. They’re part of a hype where people who profit from said hype or are converts to the hype prop each other up and serve as each others sources, while the underlying science is poor to non-existent. If you’d actually researched the scientific basis of your belief in the evil of gluten, a major part of western diet for centuries, you would have a leg to stand on in the environment of the Straight Dope, but you keep reinforcing our judgement that you’re not knowledgeable about what constitutes good scientific evidence. hello, nice 2 meat u. well, its science…& glad u r not upset! that would b pointless & unintended, consequently… feel free 2 take up any misgivings with stated persons, 2 verify what ive told u is accurate; sorry, id like 2 engage further discussion, howevr my unwarranted criticism detector just broke from overuse…shoulda heeded it several posts ago… ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/89 "2012-01-24T20:52:52Z")
Oh, completely forgot: > [@](#): > > vaginal sw11ng Isn’t that a symptom of puberty/pregnancy? ---
**Author:** ![gluten\_free](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@gluten\_free](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluten_free)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/90 "2012-01-24T20:54:59Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > As long as you know that no one is going to take you seriously or really bother with your posts when you do stuff like that, it’s all good. They will all have their reasons as well, namely that folks on this board don’t take kindly to that sort of silly shit. 😛 > > Have a nice day 🙂 > > -XT ganging up on some1…not just 4 breakfast, anymore. ---
**Author:** ![gluten\_free](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@gluten\_free](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluten_free)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/91 "2012-01-24T20:57:52Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Oh, completely forgot: > > Isn’t that a symptom of puberty/pregnancy? I can try 2 completely 4get this, but it may take some doing? (I m not the enemy…being regarded as 1, does not make it so) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/92 "2012-01-24T21:06:13Z")
> [@gluten\_free](#): > > not going 2 repeat my reasons 4 typing this way; 4 all u know, i might come from a long line of codetalkers in the tradition of the Lakota tribe… The code talkers were Navajo. I am detecting a certain consistency in the quality of your research. Regrettably, that statement is not the compliment it might be under other circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/93 "2012-01-24T21:12:53Z")
**gluten free** … I have not commented on your posting style. I asked you to provide a citation for the assertion “gluten is a neurotoxin”. You have produced numerous links to biased, unscientific and unreliable websites, or authors whose clinical detachment cannot be assumed. You have repeatedly made incorrect and somewhat paranoid assumptions about the reasons why people are challenging you. You have tried to shift the burden of proof away from yourself (it’s your assertion). You have not produced anything remotely resembling a reliable citation for just that one assertion. It seems like you don’t understand what’s being asked for. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/94 "2012-01-24T21:21:54Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > This generalisation wouldn’t hold in India, where 30% of the population identify as vegetarian. It also wouldn’t hold for the working class of England perhaps two centuries ago, where meat was a luxury. Of course, they’d probably have no ethical objection to it and their diets would have improved if they had the ability to secure some. Do keep in mind, though that many vegetarians in India still eat animal products such as butter, and the English vegetarians of two centuries ago might well have considered fish and non-meat. Eggs are also a common component of many vegetarian diets. While humans can, clearly, survive on a non-meat diet that does not mean it is their “natural” diet. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/95 "2012-01-24T21:26:00Z")
Economics also plays a big part in why meat wasn’t eaten as much in England 2 centuries ago (or even 1 century ago compared to today), and why it’s not eaten more in India today (though religion and culture also play a big part…but I think both have been influenced on the meat issue by economics as well). Based on biology alone, I’d say humans ‘natural’ diet is basically whatever we can scrounge up to eat, whether that be fruits, vegetables, bugs or road kill. The percentage we eat of any of that depends on what we CAN eat. But, based on how much we (as a species) seem to like fats, sugars and carbs, that’s what we REALLY want when we can get it. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/96 "2012-01-24T21:26:17Z")
> [@gluten\_free](#): > > there r more sales pitches on this site, actually which r unrel8d 2 content, u bother 2 read thru & critique my posts & not verify the truth behind what ive said, i m not ur research assistant, u asked 4 verification & ignore it when its handed u on a silver platter, u r continuing 2 digress 2 disprove something u have not disproved…r u a vegetarian angry with me 4 suggesting an omnivorous diet earlier, or just attacking me because u can? I m not impressed…& yes, i m brave, thank u 4 noticing. For Og’s sake - are you capable of speaking? If so, PLEASE get and use some dictation software so what you post is comprehensible without the need for translation. You clearly have no clue how much your “writing” style detracts from the content of your posts. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/96bed5/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/97 "2012-01-24T21:48:06Z")
> [@gluten\_free](#): > > Thats unfortunate, because I take my word; > > The book i referrenced, contains uncorrupted, scientific & reviewed info; > \ > [@gluten\_free](#): > > i never trust any1 saying ‘trust me’. > \ Am I the only one that sees a contradiction here? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/98 "2012-01-24T21:51:55Z")
You might be the only one who could translate what he was trying to say there into English. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/99 "2012-01-24T22:07:17Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > **gluten free** … > I have not commented on your posting style. I asked you to provide a citation for the assertion “gluten is a neurotoxin”. Here, I’ll get him started. (It takes him a long time to type). I’ll just Google “gluten neurotoxin.” Let’s see . . . I found a Dr. Rodney Ford who “[sees gluten as a brain disruptor or neurotoxin](http://www.liftingbrainfog.com/?p=25)” The [House, M.D. wiki](http://house.wikia.com/wiki/Celiac_disease) says the fact that people with Celiac disease have neurological symptoms “suggests that gluten is a neurotoxin.” Ahh, maybe there is something here . . . A study found a [link between gluten and nerve damage](http://www.glutenfreesociety.org/gluten-free-society-blog/gluten-causes-nerve-damage/)! Wait, that’s a link between gluten **sensitivity** and nerve damage. Well, they say gluten “has been identified as a potential neurotoxin.” I’m not worried though; the mean age of onset was 55 and I don’t seem to be gluten sensitive. Oddly there are no results from major medical sites (like the World Health Organization or the National Institute of Health), no media or news stories, not even hits on things like WebMD or Wikipedia. (Anyone surprised?) Well I got you started \*\*gluten free \*\*; I’ll let you have the glory of finding the good cites. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/100 "2012-01-24T23:26:56Z")
Nobody is disputing that gluten is bad for celiacs and other acutely sensitive people. But there seems nothing other than bald assertion supporting the notion that it is bad in general. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381.md?page=6)