# Is man a meat-eater or a vegetarian by nature? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2012, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381 "2012-01-13T11:12:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/161 "2012-01-27T09:33:58Z")
> [@gluten\_free](#): > > We were overlooked for health issues & have lived with attempts 2 both discredit me & get me 2 shut up about it @ same time; this is the least of what has passed, am doing poorly currently, physically & am overwhelmed & in a great deal of physical pain & have other issues, so if u can b the least bit accomodating, i m not even asking 4 compassion, i would gr8ly appreci8 it, more than u know. > > u do not visit the library? i never suggested u buy anything. ..u could, tho, i urged u 2 obtain a copy 4 urself, however that is accomplished…if i knew where 2 send it, that people would read it, i would don8 it myself..I requested our local library order it in & held an awareness display & set out reccomended reading & contacts. I doubt my local library has much in the way of medical texts, but why should I do that anyway? It’s YOUR claim that gluten is a neurotoxin and (apparently) also your claim that everyone is at risk. If that was true, it seems likely you’d be able to deliver the citation supporting those views without expecting anyone else to do the legwork for you. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/162 "2012-01-27T09:35:44Z")
> [@gluten\_free](#): > > dont. I provided RESOURCES 4 u. > > NOT 4 me. > > I already had been given access 2 them. > > U r only denying urself, not doing a thing 2 me. > > The chasing part was also entirely your derivation if what was said…i could not b more pointed if i tried…& tho, DID try. NO matter what u say 2 the contrary… > > O WELL. ANOTHER FAILURE. no shock, here… You have not provided anything remotely resembling a proper citation for your claims. I’m guessing you just don’t comprehend the requirements for such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/163 "2012-01-27T13:03:12Z")
> [@gluten\_free](#): > > U waste ur breath sighing. I m not going 2 apologize 4 my typing, again. You were warned that this site expects normal English. When someone is obviously not a native speaker we do make allowances, but expect them to type with letters and not numbers when spelling words. You have not conformed to this expectation. Why should we make an exception for you? Because of your claim that normal typing is painful? **I don’t believe you** based on the _quantity_ of your output. If you typed in normal English you could have used half the characers to say the same thing because we wouldn’t be constantly saying we can’t understand the garbled crap you output, prompting you to type more of the same. > [@](#): > > The book u describe as ‘condemning gluten’ - if u r referring 2 ‘recognizing celiac disease, signs, symptoms, associated disorders & complications’ by cleo libonati, rn bsn is NO LESS than a combined compilation of up to date research ‘papers’ laid out 4 ease of referrence & other scientifically valid guidelines & info u keep pressing me 2 provide u with OK, since you’re having trouble with the idea of proving a cite: if the book references “research papers” then go to the book AND TELL US THE CITATION FOR THOSE PAPERS. If the book is legit and the papers genuine then in the back of the book PROPER citations will be made. COPY THEM HERE (in normal English) and then we will be able to _independently_ check up on them on-line, allowing us to draw our own conclusions, including whether or not those papers appeared in a peer-reviewed journal. Hint: _Discover_ magazine is NOT a peer-reviewed journal. This is how that sort of debate is done not just here but on-line in general. You make a claim. YOU provide the references _to the actual research papers_ in a format that allows others to go look them up. Failure to do this means you will not be taken seriously. Failing to do this, then whining about it in L33T means you will be taken even less seriously > [@](#): > > ORDER THE PAMPHLET if u wish 2 know. .i m in 2 much pain 2 typ it Oh, bullshit - I _don’t believe_ your claim that you’re in so much pain. Why? Look at the sheer quantity of verbage you have posted. > [@](#): > > 2 maligned 2 toler8 further emotional abuses here. Type in normal English and you’d find that a lot of that so-called “abuse” mysteriously disappears. To review: 1. You make claims and fail to provide cites 2. You say it’s up to US to research your claims 3. You claim to have provided references without understanding that acting as a shill to sell books for someone else is NOT providing references 4. As if it’s not enough that your asking other people to do your homework, you continue to type in a bizarre form of English _that makes it hard to understand what the heck you’re saying!_ Apparently you don’t realize that your L33T SP33K is about as comprehensible to the average person as pidgen English or Old Scots - it requires considerably more time and effort to decode than more conventional spelling. I don’t buy your coy “oh, I’m in so much pain, this is so much easier to type!” because of the _sheet volume of output_ you have given us. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/164 "2012-01-27T13:03:57Z")
> [@gluten\_free](#): > > dont. I provided RESOURCES 4 u. You have the books, why don’t you just post the relevant quotes here? I don’t believe your sources have any scientific research to back up their claims. If I am wrong, why not just quote the book here? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/165 "2012-01-27T13:06:33Z")
> [@gluten\_free](#): > > dont. I provided RESOURCES 4 u. > > NOT 4 me. No, you have provided links to what are, essentially, commercials. Are you getting a commission for whatever those sites sell? ---
**Author:** ![Dinnerz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Dinnerz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinnerz)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/166 "2012-01-27T14:03:23Z")
> [@gluten\_free](#): > > . > > u do not visit the library? > > please do not make fun of my lack of ability 2 effectively communicate. The first point you say as if you visit the library. But this makes me curious as to how you manage to first of all do that, and then turn the pages of a book if typing in plain, legible English, on a keyboard whereby moving a finger a distance of a centimeter and applying slight pressure is such a challenge for you? Secondly, are you sure it’s lack of ability, as opposed to laziness, and now what seems to be purposely attempting to cause disputes between you and fellow members for personal amusement? Finally, as well as typing in English, wouldn’t you find it fitting to not post like you’re spamming? Perhaps if you were to use legit sources rather than biased attempts at selling what is continually appearing to be bullsh\*t, your argument may have some ‘gluten’ to it. ---
**Author:** ![Dinnerz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Dinnerz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinnerz)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/167 "2012-01-27T14:30:57Z")
**Gluten Free** May i also add: After searching “Is gluten a neurotoxin?” the first item’s description was " Dr. Rodney Ford is a pediatric gastroenterologist who has written 7 books on gluten! He sees gluten as a brain disruptor or neurotoxin." Now not only would one expect you to cite that as evidence, especially since he has written 7 books which must mean his intelligence ranks him 2nd in the world only to Cecil Adams, but I see myself as an all-powerful mutant organism with a gluten intolerance. Yet just because i see myself as that, it doesn’t mean it to be correct - which it obviously isn’t, though people’s perceptions may differ 😉 If you want a more serious example, Hitler probably saw himself as doing right, but he couldn’t really have been farther from the truth. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/168 "2012-01-27T14:55:20Z")
To paraphrase Avatar, I’m probably just talking to the wall here… [QUOTE=gluten free] > **[Welcome to EnteroLab - EnteroLab.com](https://www.enterolab.com/)** > > Enterolab research & testing. * * * [www.recognizingceliacdisease.com](http://www.recognizingceliacdisease.com) assembled research [www.glutenfreeworks.com](http://www.glutenfreeworks.com) (pub site, for above book) we were directed 2 go hear CLEO LIBONATI RN BSN speak on this, after my family member was diagnosed. I dd not yet know of my own issues with gluten & that a family member was found gluten intolerant years prior; he survived cancer of intestines, gallbladder, portions of other organs; gluten is cancer promoting. I have purchased cards from this advocate, published author to hand out 2 people, explaining this & other facts relating 2 gluten. * * * Dana Korns book, Living Gluten Free for Dummies > **[dummies - Learning Made Easy](https://www.dummies.com/store/product...470585897.html)** > > dummies transforms the hard-to-understand into easy-to-use to enable learners at every level to fuel their pursuit of professional and personal advancement. Dana Korn’s ‘cheat sheet’ online version(BOOK SAMPLE) > **[dummies - Learning Made Easy](https://www.dummies.com/how-to/conten...eat-sheet.html)** > > dummies transforms the hard-to-understand into easy-to-use to enable learners at every level to fuel their pursuit of professional and personal advancement. More Series: The Essentials of Sharing a Kitchen with Gluten The Essentials of Celiac Disease The Essentials of Eating Gluten-Free The Essentials of Gluten Sensitivity Gluten-Free Cooking For Dummies Cheat Sheet Celiac Disease For Dummies Cheat Sheet Living Gluten-Free For Dummies Cheat Sheet (Australian Edition) Living Gluten-Free For Dummies Cheat Sheet (UK Edition) Gluten-Free Baking For Dummies Cheat Sheet * * * National Institutes of Health NIDDK (national institute for Diabetes, Digestive & Kidney Diseases) > **[National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (NIDDK)](https://www.niddk.nih.gov/?dkrd=www2.niddk.nih.gov)** > > As an Institute within NIH, NIDDK conducts and supports research on many of the most common, costly, and chronic conditions to improve health. which directed us 2 this advocacy group: * * * > **[Celiac Disease Symptoms, Testing & Diet | BeyondCeliac.org](https://www.beyondceliac.org/)** > > Beyond Celiac is a non-profit dedicated to raising awareness of celiac disease. View celiac disease symptoms, research, testing and gluten-free diet guides. which provided us with pamphlets to serve the awareness campaign we held in the community. (ENTEROLAB also provides information in this format, so I was told by some1 I had referred, there. * * * QUEST diagnostics [http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...gastroent.html](http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/...gastroent.html) [http://www.questdiagnostics.com/bran...test\_menu.html](http://www.questdiagnostics.com/bran...test_menu.html) these r the best i can give 2 u. please do not make fun of my lack of ability 2 effectively communicate. [/QUOTE] Ok, as noted, this is just a load of horseshit. Your links are mostly links to commercial cites to purchase some book or pamphlet or other. Others are just links to main sites, where if we wanted to figure out what you were on about we’d have to dig through the site to try and figure out what the hell you are on about, and what information on the site might have data concerning this side discussion. It doesn’t work that way here, but I think I’ve beaten that dead horse already somewhere at mid-stream AND checked it’s teeth before taking it as a gift, so just going to quickly illustrate what you would need to do to get taken seriously (not going to mention the other stuff you would need to do, since again that’s been beaten to death). Here is a [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten_sensitivity) cite discussing Gluten Sensitivity. Yeah, it’s Wiki, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. Still, there is some relevant information in here, so it’s a good place to start. Here are some of the things I think are relevant…feel free to read the whole article if you think the excerpts I post are relevant and you want to see more (see how this works?): > [@](#): > > Gluten sensitivity (GS) belongs to a spectrum of disorders in which gluten has an adverse effect on the body. It can be defined as a non-allergic and non-autoimmune condition in which the consumption of gluten can lead to symptoms similar to those observed in coeliac disease or wheat allergy (other conditions which fall under the gluten-related disorders spectrum). > > Gluten sensitivity is thought to affect approximately 6% of the general population.[1] Symptoms of gluten sensitivity include bloating, abdominal discomfort, pain or diarrhea; or it may present with a variety of extraintestinal symptoms including headaches and migraines, lethargy and tiredness, attention-deficit disorder and hyperactivity, autism and schizophrenia, muscular disturbances as well as bone and joint pain.[2] [3] [4] [5] [6] > > Until recently, the terms gluten sensitivity and coeliac disease were used interchangeably in literature. However, emerging research is beginning to identify the differences that exist between coeliac disease and gluten sensitivity. If the medical history of a patient, along with clinical tests, rule out coeliac disease and wheat allergy, a diagnosis of gluten sensitivity can be considered. However, certain criteria need to be met before a diagnosis of gluten sensitivity can be confirmed (see diagnosis section). Treatment for all three conditions is a gluten-free diet; the difference being that with wheat allergy the interruption is temporary and drugs may be administered; in the case of coeliac disease the diet is lifelong and even ingesting very small amounts of gluten-containing food could damage their health and, in the case of gluten sensitivity the withdrawal of gluten from the diet may only be temporary. > > Gluten is a protein composite found in foods processed from wheat and related species, including barley and rye. It gives elasticity to dough helping it to rise and to keep its shape. It is found in many staple foods in the Western diet. Gluten is composed of a gliadin fraction (alcohol soluble) and a glutenin fraction (only soluble in dilute acids or alkali). Some additional information from the same article: > [@](#): > > Difference between gluten sensitivity and coeliac disease > > Whilst the research surrounding gluten sensitivity is still very much emerging, coeliac disease is a well-defined condition. It is a lifelong autoimmune condition characterised by the chronic inflammation of the intestine. In genetically-predisposed children and adults the intake of foods containing gluten leads to an immune response in the small intestine. This results in the flattening of the intestinal villi and in reduced absorption of nutrients from food which can lead to nutritional deficiencies and associated long-term complications such as osteoporosis. It is believed coeliac disease affects 1% of the general population in the Western world. > > In comparison, in a recent clinical paper, gluten sensitivity was defined as ‘one or more of a variety of immunological, morphological or symptomatic manifestations that may also be shared by coeliac disease and irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) [11]. In cases where there is reactivity to gluten, yet coeliac disease and wheat allergy are eliminated as possibilities, gluten sensitivity may be considered. Whilst the general clinical picture for gluten sensitivity is similar to coeliac disease in particular, it is usually less severe and neither anti-tissue transglutaminase antibodies nor autoimmune comorbidities are found. > > It is believed that approximately 40-50% of gluten sensitivity patients may have IgG or IgA anti-gliadin antibodies (AGA)[12] [13] There is also a study identifying approximately 50% of gluten sensitivity patients, few more than the general population, carry either HLA DQ 2 or 8 [14] > > On closer inspection, it has also been found that gluten-sensitive subjects do not develop full histological lesions; their lesions, if any, are limited to types 0-1 of the Marsh classification. In addition, it has been found that they have normal intestinal permeability and an increased expression of Toll Like receptors 2 (TLR2) but no change in the cytokines involved in adaptive immune responses Th1 and Th17 such as IL-6, IL-17 A, IL 21, which are increased only in patients with coeliac disease. The knowledge of the response in gluten sensitivity to date suggests that only the innate immune system is involved, whereas coeliac disease is an adaptive immune response (autoimmunity). > > Gluten sensitivity should have a defined cause, although not apparent always with first examination, affected individuals should eventually fall into GSE or wheat allergy. Only rarely should gluten sensitivity be idiopathic. Idiopathic gluten sensitivity (IGS) arises spontaneously or from an obscure or unknown cause and may involve neuropathy, myopathy, dermal, or intestinal abnormalities. Anti-gliadin antibodies are the primary link between gluten and idiopathic sensitivity in instances “in which enteropathy or allergy are not clearly involved”. [15] This form of gluten sensitivity is controversial at the moment but there is a growing body of research to support the concept of gluten sensitivity that is different from coeliac disease and wheat allergy. > [@](#): > > Separating forms of gluten sensitivity > > Only rarely should gluten sensitivity be without cause. Generally the sensitivity can be split between coeliac disease, gluten sensitivity and wheat allergy. Since individuals with coeliac disease can also have wheat allergy, a finding of wheat allergy does not eliminate the possibility of enteropathy. Individuals highly suspect of coeliac disease may be tested for anti-transglutaminase antibodies followed by duodenal biopsy, this will confirm or refute active coeliac disease.[30] The study that recommends this, however, has a number of ATA positive/biopsy-negative individuals, this could result from patchy villous atrophy or subclinical pathology.[31][32] One current study recommended at biopsy samples running distally from the duodenum to avoid the risk of false negatives. Eliminating the possibility of coeliac disease can generally be done by adding HLA-DQ typing, in which DQ2 and DQ8 are found in enteropathy 98% of the time in caucasians, DQ7.5 the remaining 1.6% and 0.4% not found with either of these 3. Without ATA or HLA-DQ2/8 positivity, coeliac disease is not likely the cause of the sensitivity. In either case, other avenues of diagnostics, such as allergy testing are available.[33] Rarely gluten sensitivity may be idiopathic, a potential that wheat proteins play a role in other disease, in these instances DQ1 may be associated with sensitivity. There is research showing that in certain patients with gluten ataxia early diagnosis and treatment with a GFD can improve ataxia and prevent its progression. [34] To get off of the Wiki bandwagon for a moment, [here](http://www.umm.edu/celiac/celiac_facts.htm) is a cite from the University of Maryland’s medical center briefly discussing Celiac disease: > [@](#): > > What is celiac disease? > > Related Content > > ``` > UM Center for Celiac Research > Celiac Disease Podcast > Hospital for Children > Division of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Hepatology > Podcast: Celiac Disease > > ``` > > Celiac disease is a genetic disorder affecting children and adults. People with celiac disease are unable to eat foods that contain gluten, which is found in wheat and other grains. In people with celiac disease, gluten sets off an autoimmune reaction that causes the destruction of the villi in the small intestine. Celiac sufferers produce antibodies to attack the gluten, but the same antibodies also attack the intestine, causing damage and illness. Finding the cause of this disease is a priority of the University of Maryland Center for Celiac Research. > What are the symptoms of celiac disease? > > Symptoms of celiac disease include diarrhea, weight loss, abdominal pain, chronic fatigue, weakness, malnutrition, and other gastrointestinal problems. In children, the symptoms may include failure to thrive (an inability to grow and put on weight), irritability, an inability to concentrate, diarrhea and bloating. > How common is celiac disease? > > Nearly one out of every 150 Americans suffer from celiac disease, according to a new study by the University of Maryland Center for Celiac Research in Baltimore. The research indicates that celiac is twice as common as Crohn’s disease, ulcerative colitis and cystic fibrosis combined. > How is celiac diagnosed? > > A blood test is now available to screen for the presence of specific gluten antibodies. A biopsy of the intestine (before and after beginning a gluten free diet) is needed to make a final diagnosis. > What are the long-term effects of celiac disease? > > Untreatedceliac disease can be life threatening. Celiacs are more likely to be afflicted with problems relating to malabsorption, including osteoporosis, tooth enamel defects, central and peripheral nervous system disease, pancreatic disease, internal hemorrhaging, organ disorders (gall bladder, liver, and spleen), and gynecological disorders. Untreated celiac disease has also been linked an increased risk of certain types of cancer, especially intestinal lymphoma. > What is the treatment for celiac disease? > > There are no drugs to treat celiac disease and there is no cure. But celiacs can lead normal, healthy lives by following a gluten free diet. This means avoiding all products derived from wheat, rye, barley, oats, and a few other lesser-known grains. > > Read more: [http://www.umm.edu/celiac/celiac\_facts.htm#ixzz1kfb5bSAp](http://www.umm.edu/celiac/celiac_facts.htm#ixzz1kfb5bSAp) Another brief [cite](http://www.celiaccentral.org/celiac-disease/facts-and-figures/) from the National Foundation for Celiac Awareness: > [@](#): > > Celiac and Gluten-Free Fast Facts: > > ``` > Celiac disease is an autoimmune digestive disease that damages the villi of the small intestine and interferes with absorption of nutrients from food. > > One in 133 Americans have celiac disease. > > An estimated 3 million Americans across all races, ages and genders suffer from celiac. > > 95% of celiacs are undiagnosed or misdiagnosed with other conditions. (Source: Fasano A, et al. Arch Intern Med. 2003;163:286-292.) > > 6-10 years is the average time a person waits to be correctly diagnosed. (Source: Daniel Leffler, MD, MS, The Celiac Center at Beth Israel Deaconness Medical Center) > > 5-22% of celiac patients have an immediate family member (1st degree relative) who also has celiac. > > Celiac disease can lead to a number of other disorders including infertility, reduced bone density, neurological disorders, some cancers, and other autoimmune diseases. > Learn more about Related Diseases » > > Burden of disease over four-year period per patient: > Females: $4,019 > Males: $14,191 > (Source: Long et al, 2010) > > There are NO pharmaceutical cures for celiac disease. > > A 100% gluten-free diet is the only existing treatment for celiac today. Get gluten-free recipes and tips on where to shop » > > A positive attitude, 100% of the time, helps celiacs create a gluten-free lifestyle for themselves and their affected family members. > > The celiac disease diagnosis rate may reach 50-60% by 2019, thanks to efforts to raise public awareness of celiac disease. (Source: Datamonitor Group, 2009) > > Gluten-free sales reached more than $2.6 billion by the end of 2010 and are now expected to exceed more than $5 billion by 2015. (Source: Packaged Facts, 2011) > > ``` Etc etc. Admittedly, I don’t know a lot about this, other than it has similarities in some instances to other food type allergies. Based on what I’m seeing here it ranges from perhaps 1-2% of the population with the critical or accute version of gluten intolerance/wheat allergy/Celiac to perhaps as high as 6% of the population with the more chronic version. This took about 5 minutes to put together, and it would be an acceptable first post for you to give the background for whatever you are trying to say. It wouldn’t be useful to prove your assertion that gluten is a neurotoxin, since that would take real, solid scientific papers that have been peer reviewed and vetted. It would also help if you know something about medicine, since for me I wouldn’t tackle that without knowing a bit about it before trying to dig in and winkle out the relevant bits to bolster my argument. This was really just a ‘how to’ guild for you to see what’s expected. A link to a relevant cite supporting whatever you are trying to demonstrate. Relevant parts of the cite (not the whole thing as that’s against board rules) clipped out and pasted into your post. Possibly some commentary on why you think what you are quoting is relevant and how it fits into your argument. Drive by links to sites selling books aren’t what people are looking for. Just thought you should know. Oh, and btw, this thread was supposed to be about the question of whether man is or isn’t a meat eater by nature. Granted, that one has been pretty much answered, but all this gluten stuff is definitely off the rails wrt the actual discussion. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/169 "2012-01-27T15:13:13Z")
I like Gluten. I eat it and it doesn’t bother me. My coworker is allergic to Gluten. He doesn’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/170 "2012-01-27T15:31:37Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I like Gluten. I eat it and it doesn’t bother me. You and nearly everyone else in the world, apparently - which is what makes it absurd to entertain the notion that it is, in some very general sense, toxic. If it’s toxic, why aren’t we dying? If we _are_ dying, why haven’tt we noticed? ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/171 "2012-01-27T15:56:26Z")
> [@gluten\_free](#): > > 4 th record, i never asked 2 b what amounts 2 a public service announcement purveyor regarding not only this, i was sort of shoved, or fell in2 it if u prefer… Well we certainly didn’t ask you to do it. > [@](#): > > so, threatening me (as some have) with a tossing over embankment of some kind ought b informed, ive already been there, done that, in more ways u could imagine…as the tossee (never the tosser) Nobody is threatening you. That was a stupid joke carrying on a lame gimmick from some other issue on the board, and has nothing to do with you. Ignore it, it was only mildly funny with the context anyway, and without the context it’s just stupid. > [@gluten\_free](#): > > We were overlooked for health issues & have lived with attempts 2 both discredit me & get me 2 shut up about it @ same time; this is the least of what has passed, am doing poorly currently, physically & am overwhelmed & in a great deal of physical pain & have other issues, so if u can b the least bit accomodating, i m not even asking 4 compassion, i would gr8ly appreci8 it, more than u know. Nonsense. You’ve posted 19 posts with over 1000 words (estimated, I didn’t count them all, and I didn’t include quotes). If you’re really in that much pain, you’d have cut out all the gimmicky typing that isn’t really saving you much, drop the whining about how people are being mean to you, and stick with trying to actually post relevant information. Or just give up. > [@gluten\_free](#): > > by the by…4 the person whom called [www.celiaccentral.org](http://www.celiaccentral.org) ‘biased’ against gluten & accused them of catering 2 gluten free interests (um…), in their advertising choices; here is an advert that showed up on THIS ( Cecil’s ) website: This is preposterous. SDMB uses banner ads provided by outside sources. Those sources use unsophisticated filtering techniques to attempt to match the ads to content on the pages. If enough people mention “blue alien spindlegraphs”, there will start to appear ads about aliens or blue things or spindlegraphs, whatever those are. The cite owner has little control over what is shown. SDMB can get specific ads reported to the server and eliminated, but that is an extreme hassle and not worth it for ads that aren’t actually malicious (like pop ups, automatic sound, virus attacks, etc). Whereas the site you link is laden with articles and content catering to a specific customer base. It’s the content of the page that makes it suspect. Those two situations are not in the least equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/172 "2012-01-27T15:58:12Z")
We \*are \*dying of acute gluten poisoning, but we are so accustomed to it that we believe we are feeling normal. Symptoms of acute gluten toxicity are the continued use of complete sentences and standard spelling and a propensity to form logical arguments in debates. We are all doomed. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/173 "2012-01-27T16:34:18Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > We \*are \*dying of acute gluten poisoning, but we are so accustomed to it that we believe we are feeling normal. Symptoms of acute gluten toxicity are the continued use of complete sentences and standard spelling and a propensity to form logical arguments in debates. > > We are all doomed. I think you nailed it. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/174 "2012-01-27T17:32:06Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > We \*are \*dying of acute gluten poisoning, but we are so accustomed to it that we believe we are feeling normal. Symptoms of acute gluten toxicity are the continued use of complete sentences and standard spelling and a propensity to form logical arguments in debates. > > We are all doomed. Dang, this whole time I thought it was bird flu. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/175 "2012-01-27T17:56:11Z")
I think it’s DNFTT time. ---
**Author:** ![gluten\_free](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@gluten\_free](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluten_free)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/176 "2012-01-27T20:03:43Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > We \*are \*dying of acute gluten poisoning, but we are so accustomed to it that we believe we are feeling normal. Symptoms of acute gluten toxicity are the continued use of complete sentences and standard spelling and a propensity to form logical arguments in debates. > > We are all doomed. Im baaaack… but lucky 4 u i will not stay. Any1 remember Aretha Franklin & respect? It goes both ways…so, i implore u, b gentle… IT’S TRU, that gluten can harm; from vanity 2 sanity & lots in between. It CAN interfere with mental functioning…which means impact 4 mental health & wellness, learning, the criminal justice sys, & is NOT the only consideration, just a big 1. & cross contaminating of foods a serious issue. gluten is in everything but gf foods obviously, which puts gf foods in routine danger of no longer being glutenless. It comes down 2 parts per million, when considering what makes a food free of gluten officially. If its under 20 ppm, its considered gluten free…but, if u have 5 foodstuffs or more, per day which are @ 20 ppm, u have reached 100ppm or more intake of gluten, which puts u over limit & has serious health consequences 4 those earnestly trying 2 avoid it 4 health reasons… Im going… ---
**Author:** ![gluten\_free](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@gluten\_free](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluten_free)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/177 "2012-01-27T20:07:36Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > Dang, this whole time I thought it was bird flu. :smack: i was told it may have been & it turned out 2 b MONO…& gluten… was told i just had a severe migraine & 2 go home. I was projectile vomiting & was asked if i felt sick…@ the time i was vo.iting… I also have something called PARVO. some1 told me u can exchange it between cats/dogs/humans. unless i m part feline…which i doubt… ---
**Author:** ![gluten\_free](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@gluten\_free](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluten_free)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/178 "2012-01-27T20:23:46Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > sound, virus attacks, etc). > > Whereas the site you link is laden with articles and content catering to a specific customer base. It’s the content of the page that makes it suspect. Those two situations are not in the least equivalent. GLUTEN gluten gluten free. Free of gluten no gluten foods. If adverts r targeted 4 valid reasons, like, do not drunk drive, share the roads with cyclists, dont start smoking, etc is WORTHWHILE, as r ads catering 2 gluten free… (COMMENTS regarding my pain u have NO right 2 make & r inaccurate about its levels) Ive seen ads promoting smoking, gluten, softdrinks, etc my whole life & so likely have u. It is not helpful 2 slander a website attempting betterment, that is a NON PROFIT organization u just bashed which is not harming any1 nor anything but sales of gluten, perhaps, which is barely going 2 make even the smallest dent anyway, considering responses… ---
**Author:** ![gluten\_free](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@gluten\_free](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluten_free)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/179 "2012-01-27T20:33:54Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > To paraphrase Avatar, I’m probably just talking to the wall here… > > Ok, as noted, this is just a load of horseshit. Your links are mostly links to commercial cites to purchase some book or pamphlet or other. Others are just links to main sites, where if we wanted to figure out what you were on about we’d have to dig through the site to try and figure out what the hell you are on about, and what information on the site might have data concerning this side discussion. It doesn’t work that way here, but I think I’ve beaten that dead horse already somewhere at mid-stream AND checked it’s teeth before taking it as a gift, so just going to quickly illustrate what you would need to do to get taken seriously (not going to mention the other stuff you would need to do, since again that’s been beaten to death). > > Here is a [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten_sensitivity) cite discussing Gluten Sensitivity. Yeah, it’s Wiki, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. Still, there is some relevant information in here, so it’s a good place to start. Here are some of the things I think are relevant…feel free to read the whole article if you think the excerpts I post are relevant and you want to see more (see how this works?): > > Some additional information from the same article: > > To get off of the Wiki bandwagon for a moment, [here](http://www.umm.edu/celiac/celiac_facts.htm) is a cite from the University of Maryland’s medical center briefly discussing Celiac disease: > > Another brief [cite](http://www.celiaccentral.org/celiac-disease/facts-and-figures/) from the National Foundation for Celiac Awareness: > > Etc etc. Admittedly, I don’t know a lot about this, other than it has similarities in some instances to other food type allergies. Based on what I’m seeing here it ranges from perhaps 1-2% of the population with the critical or accute version of gluten intolerance/wheat allergy/Celiac to perhaps as high as 6% of the population with the more chronic version. > > This took about 5 minutes to put together, and it would be an acceptable first post for you to give the background for whatever you are trying to say. It wouldn’t be useful to prove your assertion that gluten is a neurotoxin, since that would take real, solid scientific papers that have been peer reviewed and vetted. It would also help if you know something about medicine, since for me I wouldn’t tackle that without knowing a bit about it before trying to dig in and winkle out the relevant bits to bolster my argument. This was really just a ‘how to’ guild for you to see what’s expected. A link to a relevant cite supporting whatever you are trying to demonstrate. Relevant parts of the cite (not the whole thing as that’s against board rules) clipped out and pasted into your post. Possibly some commentary on why you think what you are quoting is relevant and how it fits into your argument. > > Drive by links to sites selling books aren’t what people are looking for. Just thought you should know. > > Oh, and btw, this thread was supposed to be about the question of whether man is or isn’t a meat eater by nature. Granted, that one has been pretty much answered, but all this gluten stuff is definitely off the rails wrt the actual discussion. > > -XT I had reflux & other, NON intestinal things…this is not complete. Moreover, there is research some outreach orgs do not share in part because they will lose ‘adherents’ whom find it challenging enough 2 make some accomodations, but r not willing 2 do much more than that…& y i included sources which acknowledge a bit more of the story…& it is not neccessarily intentional that certain findings get overlooked…but there is disagreement on what constitutes certain findings & this does not mean what is disagreed upon is disputable. Im out. ---
**Author:** ![\_tom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/dec6dc/32.png) [@\_tom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_tom)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381/180 "2012-01-27T20:38:06Z")
I used get a newsletter from Dr. Loren Cordain, author of a few books now, and a site called The Paleo Diet ([http://thepaleodiet.com/](http://thepaleodiet.com/)). The newsletter articles are all completely referenced, but are unfortunately no longer available online - he’s selling them now 👎 I know he has written for Scientific journals but for those looking for peer reviewed articles, I’m afraid I’m out of my depth. He subscribes to the idea that we’re better off going back to our pre-agricultural diet (hunter-gatherer - mainly meat, veg & fruit) - as grains (and dairy, and sugar) cause many chronic illnesses. I dont follow the diet myself, but have started eating more protein 🙂 To those who think we’ve had a long time to adjust to this new diet of grains, I’ve read that it consists of 5% of our time as a species, and only 0.4% of our time on earth if you include Homo Habilis & Erectus. I quote a referenced article from one of his newsletters below, titled “_A 10,000 Year Old Riddle of Bread and Milk Solved_”. It’s a facinating interpretation of how we adjusted to the new diet, explaining along the way, oddly enough, why only North Europeans are white - and able to digest milk. Any yes, it’s related to diet changes - in particular, grains. [spoiler]The Paleo Diet Newsletter—May 15, 2006 […] THIS MONTH’S FOCUS: A 10,000 Year Old Riddle of Bread and Milk Solved Introduction ``` Most nutrition students know that dietary proteins are not absorbed by the intestines because they are broken down into their component amino acids by enzymes in the gut during the digestive process. Even if dietary proteins escape proteolytic (protein shearing) degradation in the gut, they are normally denied entry into the bloodstream by various gut, liver and immune system barriers. For the past 20 years the pharmaceutical industry has been keenly interested in figuring out a way in which to get intact proteins past the gut barrier and into the bloodstream — and rightly so. A billion dollar market would be instantly opened up to any company that could develop a procedure to transport insulin (a large protein molecule) across the gut barrier without directly injecting it into the bloodstream. An insulin pill would be a diabetic patient’s dream come true. Well guess what? The day in which an insulin pill will become a reality is getting closer. ``` As a Paleo Diet fan, you may be scratching your head and saying, “So-what – why should I be interested in an insulin pill. Shouldn’t proper diet and exercise be the preferred approach for treating type 2 diabetics?” You are absolutely correct, but the relevance of the insulin pill for Paleo Diet devotees is not to be necessarily found in the clinical application, but rather in the pathway whereby intact proteins gain access to the bloodstream. This pathway and its nutritional ramifications represent one of the most fascinating and relevant evolutionary tales in all of human history. … [MATERIAL DELETED BY MODERATOR][/spoiler]FWIW I’m just throwing this out here cause I find it fascinating - I’m not here to defend it - I do find it & him very persuasive, but that dont qualify me to debate this 😉 edit/ to be honest I havent read this thread beyond page two because I wasnt getting much out of it. And I’m not posting this in response to anyone, I just felt it was interesting and on topic. Thanks, Tom [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-a-meat-eater-or-a-vegetarian-by-nature/609381.md?page=10)