# Is "man" American or British? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 1, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252 "2003-12-01T13:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Zardoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a8b319/32.png) [@Zardoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zardoz)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/1 "2003-12-01T13:10:29Z")
The slang application, that is. I know in current times it’s American, the British (and Aussie) counterpart being “mate”. But was there ever a time (now??) in which “man” was used in British slang? ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/2 "2003-12-01T13:28:21Z")
It’s been used (for either gender) in the North East of England for many years. You’ll have to wait for a Geordie to explain where they got it from and how long they’ve been using it. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/3 "2003-12-01T13:56:34Z")
It’s a Germanic thing. In German, _man_ means a person of either sex. _Mann_ means specifically an adult male person. In English, we’ve lost the distinction between these two closely related Germanic words, and so nonsexist language has had to reinvent the words and expressions that once used “man” to refer to humans in general, because that sense has been obscured by the specifically male sense. Etymologically, _woman_ comes from Old English _wif-man_: the word _wif_ (\>wife) by itself simply meant ‘woman’ or ‘female’ (although now its use has become restricted to mean a woman married to someone, except in the phrase “old wives’ tale”; in German the cognate _Weib_ still means ‘woman’), and OE _man_ meant, as in German, a person of either sex. So originally _wif-man_ meant literally ‘a female human being’. Compare the Malay word _orang_ which means ‘a person’; in Malay the word for woman is _orang perempuan_ ‘female person’, while the word for man is _orang lelaki_ ‘male person’. People looking up the etymology of “orangutan” are told it means ‘man of the forest’. Not exactly. It means _person_ of the forest. Those old etymologies were using “man” in the old Germanic sense of ‘person of either sex’, but now it’s likely to be misunderstood as “adult male person.” ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/4 "2003-12-01T14:06:19Z")
**Jomo Mojo** , the question was about the particular use of ‘man’ in slang phrases, for examplein David Bowie’s _Sufragette City_: > [@](#): > > Hey man, ah leave me > alone you know Hey man, well Henry, get off the phone, I gotta Hey man… Where you can see that man is being used in the seond rather than third person. Unless you are sayig that this practice is comes from the Germanic roots. As Everton says this vernacular use of the word ‘man’ is very common in the North-East of England. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/5 "2003-12-01T14:08:30Z")
\*Unless you are saying this practice comes from the Germanic roots of English. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/6 "2003-12-01T16:55:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > \*\*It’s a Germanic thing. In German, _man_ means a person of either sex. _Mann_ means specifically an adult male person. > > In English, we’ve lost the distinction between these two closely related Germanic words, and so nonsexist language has had to reinvent the words and expressions that once used “man” to refer to humans in general, because that sense has been obscured by the specifically male sense.\*\* I thought _Mensch_ was a human male (Mann) or female (Frau). But my Deutsch is very old and rusty. English has: human, man, and woman. Latin: homo, vir, femina. Greek: athropo, andro, and gyne. While these languages may have implied ‘men and/or woman’ by the usage of the male term, any argument about these languages actually lacking a generic ‘man or woman’ word is false. And so, there is no need to make up a generic word for ‘a human’ in Engilsh or any of these languages. (Although, the singular generic first person pronoun meaning “either a male or female” is problematic.) Peace, man. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/7 "2003-12-01T17:03:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by moriah \* > \*\*I thought _Mensch_ was a human male (Mann) or female (Frau). But my Deutsch is very old and rusty. > \*\* _Mensch_ means “person” in German. _Man_ is the third person gender neutral term, as in “_man kann_”, i.e. “one can”. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/8 "2003-12-02T00:53:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by moriah \* > \*\*English has: human, man, and woman. > > Latin: homo, vir, femina. > > Greek: athropo, andro, and gyne.\*\* In Greek, the first two words are _anthropos_ and _aner_. (The nominative case is _aner_; other declensions use the stem _andr-_, so you get partial credit.) As for English, first of all the word _human_ is not native to English; it’s an import from Latin, and second, it’s an adjective, not a noun, so it isn’t quite analogous with _man_ and _woman_. The original Old English word was _man_ which meant ‘a human being’, while the word for an adult male person was _guma_ (survives today only in “bridegroom”). > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Angua_\* > Man\* is the third person gender neutral term\*\* Exactly. It’s gender-neutral. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/9 "2003-12-02T00:55:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by moriah \* > \*\*English has: human, man, and woman. > > Latin: homo, vir, femina. > > Greek: athropo, andro, and gyne.\*\* In Greek, the first two words are _anthropos_ and _aner_. (The nominative case is _aner_; other declensions use the stem _andr-_, so you get partial credit.) In Latin, I guess you could use _femina_ to mean ‘woman’ (its original etymological derivation means ‘she who breastfeeds’), but the usual Latin word for woman is _mulier_. As for English, first of all the word _human_ is not native to English; it’s an import from Latin, and second, it’s an adjective, not a noun, so it isn’t quite analogous with _man_ and _woman_. The original Old English word was _man_ which meant ‘a human being’, while the word for an adult male person was _guma_ (survives today only in “bridegroom”). > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Angua_\* > Man\* is the third person gender neutral term\*\* Exactly. It’s gender-neutral. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/10 "2003-12-02T01:34:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > **As for English, first of all the word _human_ is not native to English; it’s an import from Latin…** It is absurd to say that ‘human’ is not native to English simply becuase it has a Latinate rather than Germanic root. A good chunk of English is Latinate. While English has Germanic roots, it is not simply a branch of German. Since I don’t have an OED, I don’t know when ‘human’ entered English, but I’m willing to bet it was a long time ago. > [@](#): > > \*\*and second, it’s an adjective, not a noun, so it isn’t quite analogous with _man_ and _woman_. \*\* Au contraire… > [@](#): > > [The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993](http://www.bartleby.com/68/50/3050.html) **human (adj., n.)** Human is Standard both as adjective, as in _She has some very human faults,_ and as noun, as in _He is not a monster; he’s a human, and a very nice one at that._ Some commentators have objected to the noun, preferring the full human being, but either choice is Standard. Peace. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/11 "2003-12-02T12:11:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by moriah \* > \*\*It is absurd to say that ‘human’ is not native to English simply becuase it has a Latinate rather than Germanic root. \*\* I was using the definition of “native” as understood in historical linguistics. From the original stock and not borrowed. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/12 "2003-12-02T14:22:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by moriah \* > It is absurd to say that ‘human’ is not native to English simply becuase it has a Latinate rather than Germanic root. A good chunk of English is Latinate. While English has Germanic roots, it is not simply a branch of German. Since I don’t have an OED, I don’t know when ‘human’ entered English, but I’m willing to bet it was a long time ago. The OED’s first cite for _human_ as an adjective is from 1398; the first as a noun is from 1533. **Jomo Mojo** point that it does not trace back to Old English is valid. As for the OP, the OED lists _man_ in this sense as being used in north England (as **everton** points out) as well as Irish, Scottish, and South African English. Besides, doesn’t Austin Powers use it? So it must be British. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/13 "2003-12-02T17:16:49Z")
As I learned recently on a repeat of Ken Burn’s _Jazz_, hip black guys started calling each other “man” at some point (40’s? 50’s?) in response to the tendancy of being addressed as “boy”. > [@](#): > > Besides, doesn’t Austin Powers use it? So it must be British. Of course, Britain became"swinging" in the 60’s as a result of the influx of black-influenced music and culture. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/14 "2003-12-02T17:23:10Z")
Partridge’s dictionary of slang records it in Britain in the early 20th century and notes widespread African use. It was popularized in the U.S. in the 1950s as beatnik slang. The beatniks are reported to have picked it up from black bluesmen, but Partridge does not indicate where _they_ picked it up. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/15 "2003-12-02T17:42:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sqweels \* > Of course, Britain became"swinging" in the 60’s as a result of the influx of black-influenced music and culture. **JeffB** was obviously joking about the Austin Powers reference, but even apart from **tomndebb’s** citation I’m certain the use of _man_ in the north east of England has nothing to do with “Swinging London” and predates it. The same cannot necessarily be said for the rest of the country. Perhaps it’s worth adding that the pronunciation of the word brought in during the ‘60s has an emphatic vowel, but in the Gerordies’ own use it has a weak vowel – almost just a mumbled “mn”. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/16 "2003-12-03T00:30:28Z")
What about “mon” in Scotland? A term of address, old enough not to have been derived from imported Ebonic speech, but native to Scotland itself. “Whit’re ye daeing, mon?” ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/17 "2003-12-04T05:17:46Z")
Well anyway, the point I made about “man” being used for either gender is validated by the Germanic philological examples from Old English and German. The mention of it being used for either gender wasn’t exactly in the OP, but it was close. It may strike our ears as odd to hear a woman being addressed as “man.” But the word actually was common gender once. Maybe this is a survival of that usage. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/18 "2003-12-04T05:40:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > \*\*What about “mon” in Scotland? A term of address, old enough not to have been derived from imported Ebonic speech, but native to Scotland itself. “Whit’re ye daeing, mon?” \*\* “Smokin’ my ganga, mon.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/19 "2003-12-04T05:54:21Z")
Right you are, **Derleth.** The sound of the language spoken in Jamaica does have a trace of Scottish lilt mixed in with the Africanisms. This completes the “man” circle that began with an Ebonic expression’s links to Northern English speech. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-man-american-or-british/216252/20 "2003-12-04T10:53:04Z")
Geordie on board! 😃 **everton** is quite correct, “man” has been used as a form of address here for centuries, as it has in Scotland (Lowland Scots and Northumbrian dialects have several things in common). **Jomo Mojo** may also be interested to know that we will also refer a woman as a “wife” (or “wifey”), a usage I’m not sure survives elsewhere. I believe that “man” as a form of address was once standard in British English, but died out in most of the country, only to be re-imported in the 60s from American slang. As evidence, I provide this quote from Shakespeare’s _Julius Caesar_: > [@](#): > > Why, man, he doth bestride the narrow world > Like a Colossus, and we petty men > Walk under his huge legs and peep about > To find ourselves dishonourable graves. As an experiment, try imagining that speech being spoken by a Geordie 😃