# Is Marching Band A "REAL" Sport? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484 "2003-11-10T21:56:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/61 "2004-08-06T12:14:31Z")
If you have to ask, the answer is “no”. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/62 "2004-08-06T13:18:45Z")
I disagree with the notion that sport must require both competitors to be on the field at once or to directly impact one another’s performance. The 100-metre dash, for instance, could theoretically be run one runner at a time. It wouldn’t be as exciting but it would be essentiaqlly the same thing. But it would be absurd to claim sprinting - maybe the most fundamental sport there is - isn’t a sport. Such a definition would also exclude weight lifting and long jumping. If your definition even threatens to exclude sports as obvious and basic as long jumping and weight lifting, you need a better definition. I keep going back to the definition I was taught in university. A sport is - A contest of physical skill - Played for its own purposes - With a defined and objective criteria that determines a winner Marching band isn’t a sport. It’s not objective, it’s inherently (partly) artistic. Nothing wrong with that, but it isn’t a sport. Chess isn’t a sport either; it’s not a contest of physical skill. These are sports: Sprinting, speed skating, weight lifting, baseball, soccer, football, hockey, golf, cricket, pretty much every track and field event, bobsled, luge, target shooting, downhill and cross country skiing, polo, tennis, badminton, ping pong, sailing, automobile racing, horse racing, swimming (but not synchronized), billiards, darts, triathlon, bicycle racing, jai-alai, squash, softball, volleyball, basketball, dwarf tossing, and more. Some things quite obviously have ELEMENTS of sport but are polluted by subjective crap. Ski jumping as a weird example in that it is clearly a sport (which little Norwegian guy can jump the furthest?) that is inexplicably polluted by a subjective element (they give the landing a score.) A hard one for me is gymnastics. Gymnastic events are judged, but they’re judged according to objective criteria for deducting points. There’s no artistic merit in most gymnastic events. You’ll notice gymnasts don’t bitch and whine about their scores like figure skaters do; the scores they get are almost invariably dead on. So while there is an element of subjective judgment, it’s based on objective criteria, so it’s a sport to me. Lots of sports require subjective judgments based on objective criteria. Football - was it pass interference or was the safety legitimately going for the ball? Only a human can judge that. Baseball - was he safe or out? Requiring human judgment is not the same as having an artistic element to the judgment. ---
**Author:** ![ErinPuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dbc845/32.png) [@ErinPuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ErinPuff)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/63 "2004-08-06T16:36:02Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Done right, it is a sport, and a very competitive one at that. > > [Drum and Bugle Corps Competition.](http://www.dci.org) Drum corps is _not_ marching band. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/64 "2004-08-06T16:52:16Z")
In 6th grade, I won the local math competition. Did that make me an athlete? I practiced, the results were objective and I competed against others. Of course it doesn’t. Practice, hard work, objective results and competition don’t equate to the activity at hand being a sport. ---
**Author:** ![Strainger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strainger/32/244_2.png) [@Strainger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strainger)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/65 "2004-08-06T17:07:06Z")
> [@ErinPuff](#): > > Drum corps is _not_ marching band. And high school football isn’t college football. I don’t get your point here. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/66 "2004-08-06T17:24:05Z")
> [@Strainger](#): > > And high school football isn’t college football. I don’t get your point here. 😕 I would assume it’s some weird musician elitism thing. ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/67 "2004-08-06T17:34:03Z")
Marching band is whatever figure skating is. Is that a sport? I don’t really know. I think the main problem people are having is comparing level of play. In modern marching band, everyone makes the team. It’s just not popular enough to turn people away. That means many of the people competing in marching band aren’t particularly good at it. But if you look at drum corps (which, despite the contention by **ErinPuff** , is essentially just marching band with slightly different instruments and better players; I did both high school marching band and drum corps, and the scoring system was identical, for example), you start to get more toward what the sport (or whatever figure skating is) of marching band looks like. A drummer in the [Cavaliers](http://www.cavaliers.org/) is just as much of an athlete as, say, a competitive figure skater (well, close at least; it’s not like anyone makes any money as a competitive drummer, so there’s still not as much of an impetus for someone who _could_ be a star athlete to join up). > [@Lockseer](#): > > Two elements must be present for an activity to be considered a sport: > > 1. Competition with opposing players/teams must exist, with a final score determing the victor. As long as they don’t have to be on the field at the same time, most marching band programs qualify here (those shows they do at half time are just an annoying practice that the school requires to give us funding). > [@Lockseer](#): > > 1. If the way the activity is performed is drastically different when the element of competition is introduced, it is a sport. Otherwise, it is not a sport. For example…you may skate around a rink and shoot pucks at a net by yourself, but when another team enters the arena, their actions directly affect yours. Also, football, soccer, baseball, etc. Golf and bowling…you might as well just be playing by yourself…your scores are just compared to how another person did in what amounts to an individual activity. That works for a definition of a “real sport”, but every definition I can find in dictionaries is far broader. Gymnastics is defined as a sport on [m-w.com](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=gymnastics). > [@Lockseer](#): > > 1. An objective rule for keeping score must be in place. I really liked the approach an above poster took regarding robot judges and algorithms. If it couldn’t be scored accurately by a computer, not a sport. That one is kinda funny, because that means the drumline of a marching band is competing in a sport, but not everyone else. At least when I was in high school, drumline scores were difficulty minus errors. It would be possible to program a computer to determine difficulty on something like a beats-per-minute basis, or perhaps by giving difficulty scores to each of the rudiments of drumming and adding them together (it’s somewhat subjective in the human-judged form, though), and it would be possible to program a computer to “listen” for mistakes. Anyhoo, I don’t really think marching band is a “real sport”, any more than figure skating and certain forms of gymnastics (the ones that are more dance-like and have aesthetics-influenced scores). But they’re whatever those things fall into. Comparing marching band to chess club, quiz bowl, debate, and theatre (all of which, of course, I also took part in, as you might guess from my name) is putting marching band in the wrong category. Just because most of us band geeks weren’t great marching band athletes, that doesn’t mean it isn’t a competitive athletic activity. ---
**Author:** ![Strainger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strainger/32/244_2.png) [@Strainger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strainger)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/68 "2004-08-06T17:38:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I would assume it’s some weird musician elitism thing. Yeah, but that’s the thing. The elite musicians in Drum & Bugle come from…guess where…marching band, and learned their skills and discipline (although drum corp challenges them to improve on these) from marching band as well. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/69 "2004-08-06T21:23:17Z")
Technically, it’s more of a performing art than a sport. But it’s used almost exclusively in a context that supports sports activities, like cheerleading and Flag Corps do, so it’s a subsidiary of a sports activity. That’s why Marching Band qualifies for a Letter, and Drama Club doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/70 "2004-08-06T22:04:27Z")
As far as I’m concerned, any pastime, game or hobby that involves physical activity is a sport. Jogging is a sport. So are SCUBA diviing, hiking, bicycle riding, surfing and weightlifting. If it has no practical application beyond its own doing, and it raises a sweat, then it’s a sport. But what do I know - I never went to an American high school. _We_ didn’t have any extracurricluar activities, thank God. ---
**Author:** ![Lckr0469](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/da6949/32.png) [@Lckr0469](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lckr0469)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/71 "2004-08-07T00:04:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > As far as I’m concerned, any pastime, game or hobby that involves physical activity is a sport. Jogging is a sport. So are SCUBA diviing, hiking, bicycle riding, surfing and weightlifting. If it has no practical application beyond its own doing, and it raises a sweat, then it’s a sport. > > But what do I know - I never went to an American high school. _We_ didn’t have any extracurricluar activities, thank God. Thank YOU! That, is the TRUE definition of a sport! ---
**Author:** ![Lckr0469](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/da6949/32.png) [@Lckr0469](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lckr0469)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/72 "2004-08-07T00:06:11Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Why are you ressurecting old threads? I read through the first page getting ready to repost my opinion, when lo and behold I run across my opinion _from last year_ here on page 2. That’s not cool. Friendly piece of advice: Start a brand new thread and include a link to the old thread, if you feel you must directly respond to a specific post, which you didn’t even do. So I was reading through some of the OLD posts! Big deal! This is a forum for LONG RUNNING DEBATES! ---
**Author:** ![Burnt\_Sugar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee59a6/32.png) [@Burnt\_Sugar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burnt_Sugar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/73 "2004-08-07T01:35:38Z")
> [@Jon the Geek](#): > > Anyhoo, I don’t really think marching band is a “real sport”, any more than figure skating and certain forms of gymnastics (the ones that are more dance-like and have aesthetics-influenced scores). But they’re whatever those things fall into. Comparing marching band to chess club, quiz bowl, debate, and theatre (all of which, of course, I also took part in, as you might guess from my name) is putting marching band in the wrong category. Just because most of us band geeks weren’t great marching band athletes, that doesn’t mean it isn’t a competitive athletic activity. Thank you! So many people don’t realise that a lot of gymnastics judging is objective. For example, if a gymnast falls off the beam, there is an automatic 0.5 deduction. No excuses. The rules are quite strict, if you look into them. ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/74 "2004-08-07T04:09:23Z")
> [@Burnt Sugar](#): > > Thank you! So many people don’t realise that a lot of gymnastics judging is objective. For example, if a gymnast falls off the beam, there is an automatic 0.5 deduction. No excuses. The rules are quite strict, if you look into them. I had never really thought about it until someone mentioned it earlier in the thread, so the credit should go to… well, whoever said it before (I’m not sure anymore, it was on the first or second page). Back in the day, drum corps was scored on a similar system. Every corps started with 100 points, divided into various categories (drumline, color guard, drill, music, probably others I’m forgetting and probably not those exact names), and the corps _lost_ points by screwing up. That led to “safe” shows, so they changed the system to a building up system. But, unofficially, the drumline was still scored on a tick system, at least when I was in one 12 years ago. They just changed it by making the starting score difficulty-based, then deducting points from that for errors (which meant scores would become “more true” over the course of the season, as judges got a better idea of the difficulty of the show). So I think the drumline portion of the score, at least, would fall more into gymnastics-style “sports” (but I know many in this thread don’t think gymnastics is a “real sport”, so I don’t know what to call it). The drill (marching) and color guard scores are, I believe, similar, although I’m fairly certain color guard scores are influenced by costuming and other… assets… of the individual color guards. The music score is fairly aesthetics-based, though. ---
**Author:** ![tremorviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@tremorviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tremorviolet)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/75 "2004-08-07T17:33:22Z")
> [@Tmagic77](#): > > Last week I read an article in the Daily Illini (my school newspaper) about the definition of sports. He was arguing that rowing is not a sport, and the definition that he gave for a sport was something along the lines of “an athletic competition in which defense is actively applied.” This, to me, is a great definition. YOu get all the traditional sports included, and the other pseudo-sports such as cheerleading and bowling aren’t included. I’ve found that most people who’ve played a sport such as soccer or basketball will tend to agree that with that definition, but participants of the pseudo-sports disagree. Just because something isn’t a sport doesn’t make it worse, it’s just in a different category. This is just stupid. That means you’re calling track and field, swimming, and all other type of races “pseudo sports”. I think there are two type of sports: “race” sports and “game” sports. Soccer and baseball are “game” sports and tunning and rowing are “race” sports. Cycling would be kinda in between. You can have games and races that don’t involve physical exertion (chess, etc.) but they’re not sports. Physical exertion is a key component of a sport. Marching band? I was in marching band in high school and we were very successful and won many competitions but it’s not a sport. It’s neither a “race” or a “game”. It does involve physical exertion but not immense amounts. We practiced for a couple of hours every day after school in the hot Florida sun and while I would get very sweaty, I was still out of shape. I realize my definition excludes figure skating and gymnastics. Maybe you could add a “judging” or “skill” sport. But an activity woudl sitll have to include a fair amount of physical exertion to be a sport… ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/76 "2004-08-07T18:29:17Z")
> [@tremorviolet](#): > > Marching band? I was in marching band in high school and we were very successful and won many competitions but it’s not a sport. It’s neither a “race” or a “game”. It does involve physical exertion but not immense amounts. We practiced for a couple of hours every day after school in the hot Florida sun and while I would get very sweaty, I was still out of shape. > > I realize my definition excludes figure skating and gymnastics. Maybe you could add a “judging” or “skill” sport. But an activity woudl sitll have to include a fair amount of physical exertion to be a sport… So, if some friends and I play football, but we don’t play very hard and don’t work up a sweat, football is not a sport? If I play a game of volleyball at a family reunion, and again don’t work up a sweat, volleyball is not a sport? If I take a figure skating class, but am not particularly good at it and don’t work really hard at it, is figure skating no longer a “skill sport”? If figure skating is a “judging sport” or “skill sport”, then marching band is also a “judging sport” or “skill sport”. Just because there are versions of it where you aren’t competing at the highest level doesn’t mean it isn’t a sport. ---
**Author:** ![tremorviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@tremorviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tremorviolet)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/77 "2004-08-07T19:23:18Z")
> [@Jon the Geek](#): > > If figure skating is a “judging sport” or “skill sport”, then marching band is also a “judging sport” or “skill sport”. Just because there are versions of it where you aren’t competing at the highest level doesn’t mean it isn’t a sport. That’s where I’m kinda waffley. I _don’t_ really think figure skating is a sport. So it’s tough for me to argue that marching band’s not a sport if figure skating is. How 'bout this argument: if you can compete at top levels without being in good shape, it’s not a sport. Therefore the drumline and flag corps would be sports but the regular band would not, even at the corps level. Most of my band’s routines were nicked directly from the Blue Devils (our band director was a huge drum and bugle corps fan) and very intricate but even marching while playing wasn’t insanely taxing. ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/78 "2004-08-07T19:44:08Z")
> [@tremorviolet](#): > > That’s where I’m kinda waffley. I _don’t_ really think figure skating is a sport. So it’s tough for me to argue that marching band’s not a sport if figure skating is. I agree. I’m not sure figure skating is a sport. But whatever figure skating is, marching band is in the same category. I think (see below). > [@tremorviolet](#): > > How 'bout this argument: if you can compete at top levels without being in good shape, it’s not a sport. Therefore the drumline and flag corps would be sports but the regular band would not, even at the corps level. Most of my band’s routines were nicked directly from the Blue Devils (our band director was a huge drum and bugle corps fan) and very intricate but even marching while playing wasn’t insanely taxing. But did you perform them exactly the same as the Devs? Many high school football teams use plays from the pros; does that mean the pros aren’t really that athletic? Maybe I’m biased because I was in the drumline. I could never have made it into the Cavaliers or Madison Scouts. My wrists and fingers simply aren’t capable of making a drumstick move like that. But I still think the rest of the band is competing in an athletic activity; there just aren’t that many people who are _really_ great at this activity, so even the “teams” at the top level aren’t as athletic as, say, the American Olympic Figure Skating Team (or whatever the group of American figure skaters is called). In other words, I think marching band is a particularly unpopular athletic activity, but I still think it’s an athletic activity on the order of figure skating. It’s just hard to get it to the level of other “sports” of this kind, because there aren’t as many people who want to do it, and you need about 100 (or more) of those people to make a single team. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/79 "2004-08-07T20:11:13Z")
You go and tell a Grambling or a Jackson State grad that band is not a sport. That’s fighting words for ya. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484/80 "2004-08-07T21:02:29Z")
> [@capacitor](#): > > You go and tell a Grambling or a Jackson State grad that band is not a sport. That’s fighting words for ya. I’m glad you didn’t mention Southern. Their band SUCKS! - **Wolfian** , son of a Tiger I’m in a marching band. I’ve been in marching bands for the past seven years of my life. While it can be trying it isn’t a sport. Who cares? It’ll still a good time and free season tickets to a Div. 1 football game. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-marching-band-a-real-sport/212484.md?page=5)