Is mass transit a waste of energy?

A) “City”, when used with “London”, is ambiguous. Presumably we’re talking about Greater London; the City of London is only one square mile. (Yes, the distinction is a real one; they even have a different police department.)

B) Yes, the London Underground goes far afield. For a comparison to NYC, you’d have to include not only the Subway, but the LIRR, PATH, most of NJ Transit, and other lines that I cannot offhand name in New York and Connecticut. And don’t forget Staten Island Rapid Transit and the Newark Subway.

You don’t understand. In the United States 1,000 people per square mile is a city. Orange County is the center of Metro Orlando which has over 2 million people. The average population density for Metro Orlando is less than 500 people per square mile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando-Kissimmee,_Florida,_Metropolitan_Statistical_Area

From what I can tell, a fully developed suburban area in the United states probably runs around 2 to 3 thousand people per square mile. I suspect the English definition of subburb runs heavily to townhomes and condos instead of houses sitting on 1/4 to 1/6th acre lots.

BTW, Brad Templeton’s chart includes data on commuter rail here:
http://www.templetons.com/brad/transit-myth.html
Notice that a Honda Insight is about equivalent to a motorcycle in BTUs per passenger mile.

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After thinking a bit, I think the question of energy efficiency is all apples and oranges.

Can we realisticly use coal for anything other than electricity production? Does the efficiency then matter, other than in the resulting price (or in CO2 emissions)? Doesn’t the same apply to uranium? Can we then compare it to oil, which we can use for both cars and electricity?

If you compare by price, the inefficiencies should be factored in. The problem is - how much does a car trip cost? How much road building should you include in the costs? Public transport (at least subways) is easy to price in comparision, it’s all usually in a single budget - wages, energy, construction, everything.

I think the real reason for public transport is not efficiency per se. It’s how to avoid total traffic gridlock in a city when the number of miles travelled daily per inhabitant increases. At a certain density, building more roads and parking costs astronomical amounts - just look at Boston. It’s often a lot cheaper to build a better public transport system.

Where I live, in Oslo, they have officially given up on building more roads. The demand for roads is vastly higher than the supply, so building more roads just doesn’t help. The only practical solution is public transport.

I’m actually Norwegian, not British. But London (or Oslo) is not a very dense city - Paris is. Both in Norway and in the UK, people want their own house on a fairsized plot. A suburb around London is a mixture of detatched houses and terraces with gardens - no condos or townhouses. Orange County sure is less dense, but I think you overestimate the difference. And density varies a lot in the US. The East Coast certainly has some very dense parts.

Density doesn’t really matter, either - but too small roads do. At the fringes of London, there are many Park-and-Ride railway stations, and they are heavily used.

BTW, I’m not in love with public transport. I love my Land Rover Discovery - even at $6.7 per gallon (todays gas price). I’d rather drive if it didn’t take twice the time the subway takes, and if I only could find parking after 8am.

It gets back to what I said about real life choices.

If the real life choice has longer time, more expense, and cumbersome logistics to find parking, then commuters will choose the easier, less expensive, and faster public transportation.

Stack the advantages the other way, the commuters will choose cars over public transport.

Vary the factors in between, people will be forced to choose between speed vs hassle, or cost vs time, or amount of walking vs amount of time sitting at a standstill in traffic getting honked at.

Cars provide much more timely response and more freedom of movement with less personal hassle - but only if the roadways support the amount of traffic.

Trains, buses, and subways in urban environments can cut down commute time in crowded streets and allow the rider freedom to do other things (e.g. read), but they rarely run precisely door to door for every location you need to visit. Usually you have to walk a bit at each end. Or get a cab or something. And carrying bulky items is more cumbersome.

Worrying about fuel efficiency or energy efficiency seems like a waste because there are lots more relevant factors in the decision making.

You’re quite right.

I wonder how much it would cost to build tunnels and underground parking in NYC in order to have effective private car transport for all, without any public transport. How much would the tolls have to be?

Is the conclusion just that (some) of our cities are designed wrong? Or does the advantages of dense cities outweigh the hassle of having to use public transport? Do we have enough space for suburbia-for-all? Well, I don’t have the answers.

I like the point Brad Templeton makes. It doesn’t make sense to haul around a ton or 2 of dead weight for every passenger, whether it is a car or commuter rail. He is pushing for what he calls ultra light vehicles.

I did a calculation for the Aptera. It uses 4kw when being driven at 55MPH. That is (4000x3.6x3)/55 = 785 btu per passenger mile. That is a factor of 7 better than the average car and better than any mass transit system in Europe or the United States.

If you look into my essays on the subject (linked to earlier) you will find answers to many of the points made here, and frequently in this debate:

Roughly:

a) Of course if you pack the transit like sardines it is more efficient. The whole point is that we don’t (unarguably) and furthermore that arguably we won’t ever, not in the USA. People won’t ride the transit if they don’t think they can get home when they want to, and that demands having off-peak runs, which are inherently off-peak in their loads. Due to the way transit is budgeted, no transit agency buys a set of smaller vehicles to run at off-peak times, though some run shorter trains.

b) There are indeed various corrections (highway vs. urban, energy of making car) but these are at best minor factors. Perhaps in the end you can develop arguments that place transit modestly more efficient than today’s cars. Put simply, modestly more efficient is never going to cut it with the public, when you add in the other advantages cars have. Cars are hugely more expensive, but Americans gladly pay this extra price for what they bring – except at rush hour to CBDs in areas where congestion and parking reduce the value of the car. Amazingly, people still pay $20 to park and wait in rush hour even then.

c) Many people are confused by the name light rail, thinking that means lightweight and efficient. In fact light rail means “light passenger capacity” for use in lower traffic corridors. It is actually “light in capacity and less efficient.” Light rail vehicles are sometimes heavier (in weight) than heavy rail cars.

d) The new generation of cars being developed – electric vehicles and fancy hybrids – are much more efficient, and are much more efficient in city driving, so it is no longer a highway vs. city transit comparison. The transit has a hard time beating the ultra-efficient car, which is not spending its day running around below capacity, stopping and starting etc.

This is way too broad a generalization. Older, larger, densely populated U.S. cities tend to have high transit usage in the urban core. The more thinly populated ones, such as Houston, don’t and may not ever, but I wouldn’t assume that in all cases. L.A. heavy rail, for example, has surprisingly high (and rising) ridership. No doubt L.A. will always be mainly a car town, but I expect over time it will develop a densely built up core; it’s already among the more densely populated U.S. cities.

Not true. Commuter rail systems generally have infrequent service during off-peak periods; people adapt to the schedules. Operators of heavy rail systems tend to feel they need to offer frequent service to attract riders, but that’s simply an assumption. Chicago, for example, recently reduced service frequency on bus and rail due to budget problems; bus ridership went down but rail went up. People will generally ride transit if it’s cheaper or faster than auto. In my experience central D.C., New York, and Boston are virtually impassable by car during rush hour; usually I take transit, walk, or occasionally take a cab in off-peak times when I’m in those cities. Chicago isn’t as bad, but downtown parking is expensive and I generally take the “L” when traveling to the CBD.

You want to avoid short trains if you can, since this increases labor costs. If labor contracts will permit, it’s more efficient to run long trains less frequently during off peak. Chicago used to run frequent short trains during off-peak but moved away from this practice during the early 90s. On the more heavily traveled lines the increased headways aren’t objectionable.

Some do, but in general, as I say, as density and congestion increase, so does transit usage. There are many examples of this. Look at the L line in Brooklyn, for example, or the Red, Brown, and Blue lines in Chicago.

That’s rare, although there’s some overlap. Blue Line heavy rail cars in Boston are small, but my guess is they’re still heavier than Green Line light rail cars. Orange and Red line cars are certainly heavier.

You’re right that energy efficiency isn’t a good argument for transit. The value of transit is that it supports density. Density may or may not be more efficient; I wouldn’t blithely assume that it is. It does, however, increase the entertainment value of city life, and in my opinion that’s the chief argument in its favor.

True commuter rail, that runs primarily well-loaded trains at rush hour, is by and large a win, both from a congestion and energy standpoint. Some commuter rails don’t even run empty reverse trains, they just own enough trains to have some decent fraction of them come in during the morning, sit and go out at night.

Commuter rail though, does not increase residential density that much. People tend to drive to the commuter rail parking lot. The rail makes it easier to suburbanize, not harder. But it does reduce congestion and does save energy. It, and certain long-haul (amtrack) are the most efficient trains there are. I would venture most commuter rail riders own cars, though they may own only one car for a couple thanks to the commuter rail.

Transit, as a true car alternative, can’t run at just rush hour, and this is the rub. It has to run all those light load, heavy vehicles and it has to run them to the end of the line and back. This is what curses transit with those poorer than expected energy numbers. It’s real hard to fix. To fix it you have to get people to not own cars and take their mid-day trips by transit. Which they do in some cities (like NYC, and much more in Asia and Europe.) But even in those cities, the improvement over cars is less than people imagine, and in fact small city cars (lightweight, electric) and scooters will be more efficient, without offering the negatives of transit.

In U.S. cities, transit faces a curse. Once a person decides they need a car for some fraction of their trips, they buy one. Once they have a car, they now have a reason not to use the transit, as they view the cost as only the incremental cost of gas and parking, the vehicle already being paid for. Indeed, it is wasteful of all that money to take the bus.

A hard reality is that while almost all transit systems are designed hub and spoke, a large fraction of trips in cities are not to and from downtown, and these are the trips that make people decide to buy a car.

One answer to this (New York’s answer) is the taxi fleet. In NYC you don’t need a car because, for those trips that transit can’t do well, you can always get a taxi. This prevents that curse.

Of course my prediction is that in the 2020s, robocars can completely rewrite these rules. Fast, private, efficient, uncongested, door to door, no-parking, no waiting, non-stop, anywhere to anywhere. Commuter rail will survive for rush hour but otherwise it’s hard to see much to keep the other lines alive. (Well, uncongested takes a bit more time as humans will keep driving for a few decades more, perhaps until they start being billed for the congestion they cause.)

You say “transit supports density” but of course some people like density and some don’t. Waves of parents of small children starting in the 50s fled density in spite of the high cost of cars. They saw many downsides to density, which beat out the upsides.

But we live in a very different world now, and with much smarter computers. We are well within the grasp of allowing many forms of transportation to work with many different densities. People will buy and vote for the densities they like. The reality is that the young and childless tend to value the entertainment value of city life, and the parents tend to assign far greater value to yards, detached houses, low density, safety, school quality and other things their children will encounter. No reason higher density can’t have good school quality, and even safety but that’s not the current trend.

No argument here. Chicago, to use the example I know best, has an excellent commuter rail system but thinly populated suburbs.

It’s not as hard as people think. Chicago, for example, has begun running turnbacks on the Blue Line - during rush hour, every other train terminates at an intermediate station and heads back in the opposite direction rather than running to the end of the line. I believe Atlanta and D.C. do something comparable. You need a densely built up core to make this work, with the heaviest ridership on the close-in stations.

Boston and Chicago both have good off-peak ridership. Chicago has had strong gains on weekends over the past few years.

Transit doesn’t offer greater energy efficiency, but it’s a good way of dealing with congestion. I notice Randal O’Toole in the WSJ today touting robocars, which would pack a lot more cars into a given stretch of road, but that seems pretty blue sky to me. A dense city without transit is like a tall building without elevators; it’s just not practical. That’s why you need transit, not energy savings. Electric cars don’t help you solve the congestion issue.

You’re oversimplifying. I have two cars but usually take transit downtown since parking is so expensive.

Well, not the only ones. If you’re doing a lot of errands, a car is more efficient. And not all transit systems are hub and spoke. It’s fairly common to operate bus systems on a grid, with a lot of crosstown service. Rail systems are more commonly hub and spoke, but not all. Paris is a grid, as is central London. NYC is a grid in Manhattan and to a lesser extent Brooklyn.

The takeaway here is that while energy efficiency is a poor argument for transit, that doesn’t mean transit lacks any justification. Densely populated large cities, which have come back into vogue, won’t work without transit, electric cars or no. The real importance of transit is its impact on urban form.

I guess you saw O’Toole’s article as well. I’ve been hearing about robocars for 50 years. Ain’t holding my breath.

You want a range of choices, no question. I entirely agree density isn’t for everybody. But if you like it, you’ll figure out a way to make it work. In the big city where I live, crime is down sharply and the public high schools have greatly improved - I sent my kids there. My point is, big city life has again become a realistic middle class choice. Transit makes it possible, and provided it’s at least on par with other methods of transportation from an energy efficiency standpoint, that’s good enough justification for me.

Actually, it’s just as likely that O’Toole read my articles. I have not seen the WSJ piece. I have an article in the works about how a lot of smart traffic management is possible even with human drivers to manage congestion and get a lot more capacity out of the roads.

While you understand the difficulties of making transit work efficiently (as do I) this is an uncommon view. Most transit arguments spend a lot of time on the “green” aspects of it.

When it comes to congestion, transit’s real win is rush hour, but not all lines can be sustained with just rush hour traffic. In most cities there is not a big congestion problem outside the CBD during the day, some even have a reasonably navigable CBD during the day. Night is generally nice. I used to take the street car downtown during the day (40 minutes!) in part due to parking cost and congestion but would drive at night (11 minutes.) The only thing that made the 40 minutes tolerable was being able to read on it.

Right now a lot of interesting work is being done in congestion management with metering and congestion charging. I expect the two to come together and offer metering (or auctioning) of access slots in congested sections, done before you leave. (So you wait at home, not in a freeway on-ramp) so that no road gets more cars than it can handle.

The result is very low congestion, though accidents of course can cause it. When the robots come, you can pack them closer and have higher capacity and no congestion. Capacity can increase 10-fold with a combination of closer packing, half-width single person vehicles, reversal of street directions during rush hour, load balancing over many streets etc. Trains (or dynamically assigned jitney buses) could still make sense at rush hour but will be hard to argue for at other times.

Ed Zotti said:

This is exactly what I was talking about. You may not be happy that the schedule runs every 40 minutes instead of 15, but if on average you still get there just as fast or faster, then you’re still doing the same amount of senseless waiting, but with personal vehicles you have to have your attention on the road, whereas in transit you get to do other things while waiting. It’s all about the benefit balance.

It’s just not true that people will “generally” ride transit if it’s cheaper than auto, quite the opposite. Cars are hugely expensive, and with transit ticket subsidies often more expensive even incrementally. Yet the vast majority of people in most U.S. cities (Manhattan excepted) are in cars, especially outside of rush hour. This is true even in transit-oriented European cities, by the way.

People will ride transit if:

a) They are carless due to wealth or disability, of course.
b) If it’s going their way conveniently
c) If it competes with the car in speed, and parking is very expensive
d) If they are comfortable that they can do their return trip with it too.

Problem is, this isn’t enough of the time. It’s some of the time, there are many riders, but it’s just a few percent of the ground travel miles in the USA.

Yes, when the train is every hour you bend your schedule to it. But you certainly don’t like doing this, and when it’s like this it doesn’t take as much to talk yourself into taking a car.

When gasoline hit $4 a gallon, everybody posted huge headlines about transit ridership being up 20%, but they didn’t realize just how low a number that really was. Transit ridership has to go up 20fold (2000%) to make a real impact.

I think we’re arguing about different things. I’m not trying to make the case that this would be a better world if more people rode transit. I agree improving cars is the more sensible way to increase energy efficiency for the country as a whole. My point is that if you want a dense city for whatever reason (it’s more fun or you think it’s more energy efficient), transit is the one sure way to do that right now. Maybe robocars could accomplish the same thing some day, but the technical obstacles strike me as formidable and I’ll be surprised if we see them on a significant scale any time soon. In the meantime, short-term car rental services like Zipcar and IGo use existing technology to make it possible for city dwellers to use transit when it’s practical, rent a car when needed, and make the remaining trips by bike or on foot. That way you can avoid buying a car (or anyway a second car) if you’re so inclined. Whether all this results in a net reduction of carbon footprint I don’t know, but it’s an interesting experiment and apparently saves people some money.

I noticed that Brad Templeton has updated his transportation energy chart based on the latest figures:

http://ideas.4brad.com/transit-energy-chart-updated-latest-doe-book

He also links to the latest Transportation Energy Data Book

http://cta.ornl.gov/data/index.shtml

Wow – those Galveston streetcars are terrible!

Just posted this as comment at that page:

Yeah, I read the Wikipedia article too. But if it only runs once or twice a day with such low efficiency, there must have been only a couple of dozen people riding it per day!

Well, if Galveston has an excuse, I may change the no-prize to Kenosha, Memphis or north Little Rock, who are not as bad as Galveston but still pretty bad. Anybody know about their light rails and why they do so badly? The chart of the different light rails is on page 17 of Home - Transportation Energy Data Book Transportation Energy Data Book

BTW, the light rail boosters still think Kenosha is a good system: Kenosha, Wisconsin Streetcar Light Rail