# Is "maths" a Britishism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 31, 2006, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313 "2006-01-31T04:10:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/41 "2006-01-31T23:12:02Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > There’s no reason that I can think of that an abbreviation ought to include the _last_ letter of the abbreviated word. Is that so, Mr. **Excalibre**? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/42 "2006-01-31T23:57:02Z")
Is ‘Britishism’ an Americanism? As an English games player, I always use ‘dice’. I know what a ‘die’ is, but it usually suggests to me something used to mould metal. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/43 "2006-02-01T04:18:42Z")
> [@Biffy the Elephant Shrew](#): > > Is that so, Mr. **Excalibre**? I didn’t say it doesn’t happen. It’s that I don’t see why it should be considered somehow “more correct” one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/44 "2006-02-01T17:00:23Z")
> [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > Then there’s _inning_ (baseball) and _innings_ (cricket) - both singular. Is “innings” a singular or plural? Is one at-bat an inning for that player? Do you say that the first innings is/are in progress? FWIW, my department (in Canada) is abbreviated “Dept. of Math. and Stats.” which seems to answer that question. What, you want consistency in language usage? Don’t be silly. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/45 "2006-02-01T17:27:54Z")
> [@Hari Seldon](#): > > Is “innings” a singular or plural? Is one at-bat an inning for that player? Do you say that the first innings is/are in progress? For cricket - singular, no, and ‘is’. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/46 "2006-02-01T17:50:47Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > For cricket - singular, no, and ‘is’. You Brits is crazy person. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/47 "2006-02-01T18:03:14Z")
> [@Monstre](#): > > You Brits is crazy person. 😃 Don’t forget that we also talk about teams as plurals 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/48 "2006-02-01T18:40:04Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Nitpick: both “mathematics” and “maths” are usually treated as singular, not plural. Do you say: > Maths/mathematics was my favourite subject. > or: > Maths/mathematics were my favourite subjects. > ? Your point is probably right, but the argument you give doesn’t work. Say there were a class on the care and feeding of cats. I think its very plausible that people might say, “Oh, yeah, Cats is my favorite course.” The term “cats” in general is plural, though in this phrase the plural term is in some way _used_ as a singular. So when people say “Maths is my favorite course” they may have something like the “cats” example in mind w.r.t. “maths.” They think of “maths” as generally a plural term (and hence are correct to say “maths is plural,”) and think of its use in this sentence as some sort of “singular usage” of a plural term. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/49 "2006-02-01T18:42:30Z")
Here’s a relevant page: > **[mathematic | Origin and meaning of mathematic by Online Etymology Dictionary](https://www.etymonline.com/word/mathematic)** > > MATHEMATIC Meaning: "mathematical science," late 14c. as singular noun, mathematik (replaced since early 17c. by… See definitions of mathematic. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/50 "2006-02-01T19:06:14Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If I had a dine for everytime I though of starting this thread. 🙂 > > I agree with **Excalibre**. “Mathematics” is not plural I hate to say it, but it really is. OED: > [@](#): > > mathematics > plural noun [usu. treated as sing.] > … > late 16th cent.: plural of obsolete _mathematic_ from Old French _mathematique_, from Latin _(ars) mathematica_, from Greek _mathematike (tekhne)_ from the base of _manthanein_ “learn” a rough gloss from the original source of “mathematics” would be “things learned”. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/51 "2006-02-01T20:31:44Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Your point is probably right, but the argument you give doesn’t work. Say there were a class on the care and feeding of cats. I think its very plausible that people might say, “Oh, yeah, Cats is my favorite course.” The term “cats” in general is plural, though in this phrase the plural term is in some way _used_ as a singular. > > So when people say “Maths is my favorite course” they may have something like the “cats” example in mind w.r.t. “maths.” They think of “maths” as generally a plural term (and hence are correct to say “maths is plural,”) and think of its use in this sentence as some sort of “singular usage” of a plural term. > > -FrL- That may reflect the _origin_, but that doesn’t mean there’s an extent usage in which “mathematics” is plural. If there’s a course called “Cats”, you could say “Cats is fun.” But if you were referring to cats themselves, you’d say “Cats are fun.” But if you’re talking math, you’d say “Mathematics is fun” to describe the course _and_ “Mathematics is fun” to describe the subject matter itself. It’s just not a plural. There’s no evidence to suggest it is a plural. You can hypothesize invisible underlying qualities if you like, and say that mathematics is secretly plural even though it always acts as a singular, but that’s meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/52 "2006-02-01T20:53:31Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > So when people say “Maths is my favorite course” they may have something like the “cats” example in mind w.r.t. “maths.” They think of “maths” as generally a plural term (and hence are correct to say “maths is plural,”) and think of its use in this sentence as some sort of “singular usage” of a plural term. Gobbledebook. ‘Maths’ is singular. It’s used as a singular, not as a plural. It just happens to have an S on the end, and happens to have its etymological origins in a plural word. Anybody here say ‘physic’ instead of ‘physics’? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/53 "2006-02-02T00:32:59Z")
I live near DC, and everyone I know says ‘AP Stat’, not ‘AP Stats’. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/54 "2006-02-02T08:45:02Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Anybody here say ‘physic’ instead of ‘physics’? This is interesting: Alexander Pope referred to “physic” {as a subject rather than a synomym for medicine}, but “mathematics”. _The Dunciad_, Book iv, 1.634-637 See skulking Truth to her old cavern fled, Mountains of Casuistry heap’d o’er her head! Philosophy, that lean’d on Heav’n before, Shrinks to her second cause, and is no more. Physic of Metaphysic begs defense, And Metaphysic calls for aid on sense! See Mystery to Mathematics fly! In vain! they gaze, turn giddy, rave and die. This merits further investigation… ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/55 "2006-02-02T09:04:18Z")
Further investigation done: “physic” in the sense of natural science seems to date from around [1300](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=physic), thus predating “physics”, which is used to refer to natural science from 1589, and specifically to the study of the properties of matter and energy from [1715](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=physics). Pope’s _Dunciad_, by the way, was published in 1728. So, yes, Virginia, there is {or at least was} a physic. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/56 "2006-02-03T08:09:28Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Don’t forget that we also talk about teams as plurals 😉 So do North Americans sometimes. Here, subject/predicate agreement is the rule about whether teams are referred to in the singular or plural. All team names here have both a geographic part and a nickname part.[sup]1[/sup] The Portland Trail Blazers (basketball team) for example. If you’re refering to a team by the geographic part (e.g. Portland), you use the singular (Portland is losing the game). The nickname part is usually plurals, so you use the plural verb with them (The Trail Blazers are losing the game). Now there are some teams with singular nicknames, and I think the singular verb is usually used with those. However, this isn’t quite so strict a rule, especially with the Utah Jazz, which sounds plural even if it isn’t. At least the last time I googled on this, I found significant number of hits for “Jazz are”, although not as many as for “Jazz is”. [sup]1[/sup] Without exception, as far as I can tell, at least among professional teams (school teams have the name of the school in place of the geographic part, of course). I can’t think of a single North American team without both a geographic part and a nickname part to its name. Nor do I know of any school without a nickname for its teams. As I understand it, having a nickname is the exception in the UK. Most teams get by with just their city name. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/57 "2006-02-04T00:36:43Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > [sup]1[/sup] Without exception, as far as I can tell, at least among professional teams (school teams have the name of the school in place of the geographic part, of course). I can’t think of a single North American team without both a geographic part and a nickname part to its name. Nor do I know of any school without a nickname for its teams. > > As I understand it, having a nickname is the exception in the UK. Most teams get by with just their city name. Every team has a nickname. It’s rarely, if ever, part of their official title, but nonetheless used commonly, or in some cases universally. Currently, the Premiership includes the magpies, the cottagers, the toffees, the hammers, and the black cats. Lower leagues have no fewer nicknames. And don’t make the mistake of assuming the city name is enough in Manchester! Back on topic (ish), even when it’s a geographic term, it’s still plural …“Liverpool are…” etc. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/58 "2006-02-04T10:10:57Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > That’s strange. I’ve never heard an Irish person say _math_. It’s always _math **s** _ IME. eek - you mean he may be an udercover American ??? Nah, he could just be strange 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/59 "2006-02-04T10:12:27Z")
An udder cover American ? :smack: Need more tea before typing more … ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313/60 "2006-02-05T07:40:04Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Back on topic (ish), even when it’s a geographic term, it’s still plural …“Liverpool are…” etc. Not invariably: I still remember this ditty from my Scouse dad, a staunch Liverpool supporter: Liverpool’s at the top of the league Fighting for the Cup! Everton’s at the bottom Shouting, “Leg us up!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-maths-a-britishism/342313.md?page=2)