# Is McCain forked yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604 "2008-05-25T23:58:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/661 "2008-09-29T01:13:16Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Hard working white people. Remember? > > “Some” is people who’s names I can’t recall. Ya know, not everyone likes to be called “working class.” She couldn’t say she was leading with working class people, because that wasn’t true. She was leading with working class white people, but she didn’t want to call them working class. So she called them hard-working, and she’s been labelled a racist for that. That’s ridiculous. I’m not enormously fond of Clinton, and preferred Obama as a candidate. Tempermentally, I think Obama is better suited to the presidency. But this is absurd. Neither of the Clintons are racist. She was bending over backwards not to offend anyone, and ended up offending someone, as often happens. I swear, the national sport isn’t football, it’s recreational outrage. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/662 "2008-09-29T01:17:26Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Hard working white people. Remember? Cite for “white”?:dubious: > [@](#): > > “Some” is people who’s names I can’t recall. Or maybe just saw in the mirror. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/663 "2008-09-29T01:36:47Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Well, since we’re talking about people who smeared McCain in 2000 (?) re the whole “he fathered a black baby”, I think he’s got one more ace up his sleeve: somehow, someway, preying on the fears and prejudices of middle class white America re race. I have no doubt that such a thing will occur; I just don’t know how much they’ll use it. > > I most sincerely hope that such a tactic doesn’t work. I would like to think that it wouldn’t, but I will also never underestimate the credulity and stupidity of the American public. I expect to see Rev. Wright hauled out of mothballs, though I think most of the damage from that direction has already been done. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/664 "2008-09-29T01:38:35Z")
But you have not yet begun to hear about Rev. Muthee and witchcraft… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/665 "2008-09-29T01:42:28Z")
[A Witch Hunt at Sarah Palin’s church! (Thomas Muthee VIDEO)](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAWM7E_WMfo&eurl=http://conspiracytheory.itsverycool.com/muthee-palin-video-very-cool-first-witchhunter/presidential-elections/2008/09/24/) ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/666 "2008-09-29T01:56:49Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [A Witch Hunt at Sarah Palin’s church! (Thomas Muthee VIDEO)](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAWM7E_WMfo&eurl=http://conspiracytheory.itsverycool.com/muthee-palin-video-very-cool-first-witchhunter/presidential-elections/2008/09/24/) Good heavens. They openly say that not only should they be saved, but they should be rich and powerful here on earth. What possible doctrinal justification do they have for that? Jesus didn’t much care for the rich and powerful. Money changers and camels through eyes of needles and rendering unto Caesar and all that, as I recall. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/667 "2008-09-29T01:59:50Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Good heavens. They openly say that not only should they be saved, but they should be rich and powerful here on earth. What possible doctrinal justification do they have for that? Jesus didn’t much care for the rich and powerful. Money changers and camels through eyes of needles and rendering unto Caesar and all that, as I recall. [Prosperity theology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology) ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/668 "2008-09-29T02:08:53Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [Prosperity theology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology) Its so…convenient. Just like predestination or confession and forgiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/669 "2008-09-29T02:48:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Cite for “white”?:dubious: [Cite.](http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2008/05/09/clinton_remarks/) > [@](#): > > Citing an Associated Press analysis “that found how Senator Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me,” she went on to say: “There’s a pattern emerging here.” > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Or maybe just saw in the mirror. Do you really think no one said it back fired on her? Are you going to be that disingenuous? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/670 "2008-09-29T02:56:30Z")
You really have to \*want \*to find racism to find it there.:rolleyes: To say it backfired on her, you first have to say she tried it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/671 "2008-09-29T03:09:39Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [A Witch Hunt at Sarah Palin’s church! (Thomas Muthee VIDEO)](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAWM7E_WMfo&eurl=http://conspiracytheory.itsverycool.com/muthee-palin-video-very-cool-first-witchhunter/presidential-elections/2008/09/24/) Oh, come on! The subtitles (inserted by whom?) link “witchcraft” to Buddhism and Islam, but he did not actually make the link in the portions of the talk in the video. He did complain that Buddhism, Islam, and witchcraft are “in” our schools, but he did not say that either of them were witchcraft. He did not call any specific group witches. He may have made the link elsewhere, but not in that video. As for the rest, it was pretty much boilerplate stuff from his end of the religious spectrum. It was not even that offensive; each of his calls for Christians to enter the system was immediately followed up with the explicit example that good people should enter the fields of education, government, or where ever and support Christian beliefs. I can see disagreeing with his message, but his talk _in this edited video_ was far less inflammatory than a couple of Rev. Wright’s sermons–and I don’t think that Wright said anything terrible in the context of his actual remarks. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/672 "2008-09-29T03:14:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You really have to \*want \*to find racism to find it there.:rolleyes: > > To say it backfired on her, you first have to say she tried it. He did not claiom it was racism. He claimed that Hillary made a race-based appeal that she was the stronger candidate because she had support in the specific demographic. She clearly did do that. And my memory is that while it did not “backfire” on her (as her candidacy was already pretty low in the water by that point), she did catch flak for using that particular appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/673 "2008-09-29T03:53:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Oh, come on! I wasn’t particularly offended by Rev. Wright, however some people _are_ easily offended. There appears to be enough known about Muthee that a stink could be raised. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/674 "2008-09-29T04:00:59Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > He did not claiom it was racism. He claimed that Hillary made a race-based appeal that she was the stronger candidate because she had support in the specific demographic. You got all \*that \*from the words “such a tactic”? That reference, if you’d scroll up a bit, was to **eleanorigby** ’s phrase “preying on the fears and prejudices of middle class white America re race” - i.e. race-baiting, as I said. How you see noting one’s relative strength in a particular demographic as being equivalent to \*that \*is puzzling indeed. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/675 "2008-09-29T04:01:00Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > As for the rest, it was pretty much boilerplate stuff from his end of the religious spectrum. You mean the end that runs old women out their homes and out of town for being a witch? This is the guy you want to defend? ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/676 "2008-09-29T04:23:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You really have to \*want \*to find racism to find it there.:rolleyes: > > To say it backfired on her, you first have to say she tried it. She basically told people that Obama won’t win because white people won’t vote for a black guy. Why else would it matter that she has more white supporters? You can conclude that this is merely stating a statistic, but I think it’s a play on racist fears. The fear that white people won’t vote for a black guy. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/677 "2008-09-29T04:36:17Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > She basically told people that Obama won’t win because white people won’t vote for a black guy. Why else would it matter that she has more white supporters? > > You can conclude that this is merely stating a statistic, but I think it’s a play on racist fears. The fear that white people won’t vote for a black guy. She was struggling to find a demographic with whom she was winning, so that she could justify staying in the race. She wasn’t ready to give up quite yet. White working-class men was the one she had. Don’t get me wrong. I think Hillary would have been perfectly willing to take the votes of those who feared voting for Obama just because of his race, just as I think Obama would have been perfectly willing to take the votes of those who feared voting for Obama just because of her sex. One often gets the votes of people one would personally feel distaste for. But I don’t think the Clintons fostered racism one bit more than Obama fostered sexism, which is to say not at all. I repeat what I said above - it would have been political suicide for her, and she’s not the type to commit suicide. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/678 "2008-09-29T04:37:01Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > The fear that white people won’t vote for a black guy. That was a legitimate concern. Go visit my home state of Alabama then come talk about whether some whites will refuse to vote for a black guy. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/679 "2008-09-29T04:42:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You got all \*that \*from the words “such a tactic”? That reference, if you’d scroll up a bit, was to **eleanorigby** ’s phrase “preying on the fears and prejudices of middle class white America re race” - i.e. race-baiting, as I said. > > How you see noting one’s relative strength in a particular demographic as being equivalent to \*that \*is puzzling indeed. I got “all that” by going back and reading the actual statement by Senator Clinton in the context in which it was delivered. This differs form your claim that there was a charge of “racism,” (_you did not say “race-baiting,” you said “racism”_), that does not appear in any of the posts in this series–except yours. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2008, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604/680 "2008-09-29T04:46:18Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > You mean the end that runs old women out their homes and out of town for being a witch? This is the guy you want to defend? You have an actual citation that Muthee has actually encouraged such an action? And I am not really defending him so much as cautioning those who oppose Palin to avoid getting so into demonizing her and her associations that they open themselves to charges of exaggeration and mendacity. Note that I never claimed that Muthee has never said anything terrible; I pointed out that the video linked does not support the charge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mccain-forked-yet/450604.md?page=35)