Is Membership in Fraternal Organizations Dwindling?

Well, shit, I mean everything that’s happened in the last 40 years has been blamed on that.

I assume you mean it would be nice if we had no more foreign wars…?

The comic strip Crankshaft made this point this past Memorial Day.

jimmmy writes:

> Putnam attributes the decrease in involvement to several factors, beginning
> with political disillusionment in the wake of the assassinations of JFK and
> others, and disaffection brought about by Vietnam War protests and the Nixon
> resignation.

Um, excuse me, but, no, he doesn’t. First of all, the trends toward non-involvement that Putnam talks about began about 1960. They were already going strong by the time the things you mention happened. If anything, the political disillusionment of the 1960’s and 1970’s were a symptom of the trends, not a cause of them. Putnam doesn’t fully explain what’s causing the trends that he’s talking about in Bowling Alone because he doesn’t really understand them completely. Television and suburban sprawl are part of it, but it’s not really clear what’s causing these trends.

Exapno Mapcase writes:

> One big problem, in addition to these other real factors, was that the fraternal
> orders garnered a dark reputation for racism, sexism, anti-semitism, and every
> other sort of -ism, probably even more so at the local level than the national,
> although there as well.

andrewdt85 writes:

> I also know that what you’ve been saying about them getting bad raps for dark
> rituals and such.

I don’t think the reputations for racism, sexism, anti-semitism, or supposed occult rituals has anything to do with the decline of the fraternal lodges. The racism, sexism, and anti-semitism were worse before 1960, when the decline in membership of fraternal lodges (and many other organizations) began. They are considerably less racist, sexist, and anti-semitic now, but they have less members. No one believes the occult ritual rumors these days (and many people did believe them at one point), but they have less members

I think the reputation may have a lot more to do with it than you say. Anti-semitism, racism, sexism, etc are not as tolerated now. It stands to reason the clubs will change some with the times. But I think most people still imagine lodges as ultra-exclusive clubs of perpetually old men with funny hats, smoking cigars and trying to avoid their wives. Not these newer fresher organizations (now with less racism and sexism!) This, of course, does not exclude people’s decreased time to spend at the clubs due to increasing obligations, such as family time, television, etc.

When I was a kid I always wanted to be a member of a lodge. I think it was Fred Flintsone’s hat. I wanted to be the Grand Poobah! Then I realized that I was a black girl and not likely to be in the club and the dream died a little. But this discussion has made me want to join one again; I think it would be nice to be oart of a large civic organization (and have a cool hat-- do some clubs really wear those things depicted on t.v.? Cause that is rad). The reason I would be hesitant is that I would not want to join a group were all the members were there to gain connections. I guess I would want a sort of local bar mentality whose regulars ALSO work in the community. Friends, not a network.

It seems a shame that they are dying out. There is a lot of good they can still do in our communities.

Um, excuse me, but if you re-read carefully you might see I was quoting someone else “I” didn’t mention anything at all as to what was happening simply offering a view as to why - but I was caveating his explanations (both before andafter I posted the quote- while citing Putnam’s excellent documentation to answer the OP

O.K., but my point holds, regardless of who wrote that summary of Putnam’s work. The political disillusionment of the 1960’s and 1970’s are not the cause of the trends mentioned in Putnam’s book, and Putnam does not claim that they are. They are a symptom of those trends.

As Freemasons are required to believe in a single creator, and atheism appears to be growing in the developed world, surely Freemasons should be getting fewer.

Volunteer fire departments are still alive and well in Buffalo’s suburbs. It seems that there is a strong correlation between VFD membership and the “blue colalrness” of a neighborhood; practicelly every other male resident in a neighborhood of small ranch houses and factory workers is a vounteer fireman, while the VFDs in more affluent, white-collar communities have to beg for volunteers. Supposedly Buffalo’s strong VFD culture is rooted in Germany, where volunteer fire brigades served the role of a social club.

I don’t have a cite for this, but I’ve read several arguments that claim there is an inverse correlation between the cities with strong old-school voluntary organizations and clubs – those places lamented in Bowling Alone – and those places judged as the most creative and cool in Richard Florida’s The Rise of the Creative Class. Those places with strong social capital, where people don’t “bowl alone,” will usually have a much smaller “creative class.”

elmwood writes:

> I don’t have a cite for this, but I’ve read several arguments that claim there is
> an inverse correlation between the cities with strong old-school voluntary
> organizations and clubs – those places lamented in Bowling Alone – and those
> places judged as the most creative and cool in Richard Florida’s The Rise of the
> Creative Class. Those places with strong social capital, where people
> don’t “bowl alone,” will usually have a much smaller “creative class.”

I don’t have access to my copy of Bowling Alone at the moment and I’ve never read The Rise of the Creative Class, but I believe that’s wrong. There are places with very low social participation (one of them being parts of the rural South) where there is also a low amount of the “creative class.” Does somebody have access to both books? Could they give us a list of places with high and low social participation and a list of places with high and low numbers of the creative class so we can make a comparison? I suspect that there’s simply no correlation either way.

I am a freemason, and I am 27. I am not the youngest person in my lodge, and I am one of three officers (Including the Master of the lodge) who is under 30. I am pretty active in Masonry, although I am very active in many other organizations as well, from activism to underground electronic music collectives. At first I wanted women to be allowed into Masonry, but then I discovered that there is something nice about having a place where sexuality is removed from discourse, for a little while each week, so I am glad it is male only.

As far as Masonry goes, the only reason one should join is if they are “Seeking Light in Masonry”, any other reason to join is frowned upon. Certainly people join to gain access to the network, and that’s not wrong, if they want access to the network in the furtherance of their seeking of “light”. People who join looking to sell their wares to other masons are generally viewed skeptically. There are also the people who are there just to get social respect in the form of different honors that may be bestowed, but the official stance is that “Light” should be one’s only motivation.

I would say that it’s a misnomer to say that Masonry is shrinking right now. I would say it HAS SHRUNK significantly, and is once again growing, at least in my particular circle. I know a lot of guys in their 20s and 30s, and my lodge which was traditionally a German Jewish lodge, has black, hispanic, and asian members in addition to jews and christians. We even have Catholics in our lodge.

There is most definitely a lot of fear of the Masons out there, and I hang out in circles where being seen as “The Man” is not all that great. People joining have been relieved to see my long-hair not pushing me out.

Masonry is definitely focused on esoterica, and people who are put off by such a thing really have no reason to be there, but otherwise there aren’t any superficial characteristics that eliminate any man over 21 from membership.

For women looking for such an organization. The Order of the Eastern Star is the sister organization to the Masons.

I wholeheartedly support the “Take the organization and make it your own” idea, but there doesn’t need to be any malice in such an attempt, because generally the old guys will accept you if they feel like you truly care about the tradition you are inheriting. I have been very involved in my various masonic activities, and have gotten a lot of props and support from the older generation. In the end they just want to have a legacy, and to feel like someone appreciates their legacy, and what they gave to the younger generation, and I see no reason not to give them that. However, taking it and making it our own is exactly what we’ve been doing, and I’ve found in myself a strong traditionalist streak, which is sort of ironic to me. :wink: The rituals are beautiful when done properly, and are far from boring to the person with the proper temperament to appreciate them.

It’s not for everyone, and I’d rather see a small but truly dedicated organization than a large diffuse one.

As far as Shriner’s fez’s are concerned, there are many masons who are among the most learned people I’ve ever met, so I’d imagine there are quite a few shriners that know the history of the red fez. Hehe, I suppose when/if I become a shriner, I will be one now. :wink:

Erek

Except that membership in the Knights of Columbus is limited even further: to practical Catholics in union with the Holy See. And yet our numbers are growing.

[little hijack]
Do the Masons in general, or your lodge in particular, have a tradition of moving through the officer’s chairs? That is, in the Knights, typically a man serving as Warden is considered the presumptive candidate for Chancellor the following year; the Chancellor is considered the presumptive candidiate for Deputy Grand Knight; and the Deputy Grand Knight is the presumptive Grand Knight for the following year. In point of fact, all positions are open for election, but as a matter of practice and expectation, when we elect a Warden we are choosing the top officer for four years down the road.

Other offices do not necessarily lead to the “chair” offices – the Recorder and Advocate and so forth may, or may not, advance.

I guess what I’m asking – are you on the path, some years down the road, to being a Worshipful Master?
[/lh]

:dubious:

There cannot be sexuality-free discourse in the presence of women?

:dubious:

The presence of men alone guarantees freedom from sexuality?

:dubious:

mswas writes:

> As far as Masonry goes, the only reason one should join is if they are “Seeking
> Light in Masonry”, any other reason to join is frowned upon.

What does “seeking light in masonry” mean? You’d better be pretty specific about it, because if it doesn’t mean much of anything, why should anybody care? Is there a religion or philosophy behind masonry? What is it? Why not just publish a book about it? If the answer to that question is that one has to be slowly initiated to this philosophy, it sounds like this is a scam in one of several ways. It could be that it’s a way to take money from the initiate. It could be that it’s a way to use up so much of an initiate’s time in reaching the secrets of the masons that by the point that one has acquired them, one feels embarrassed if one discovers that there’s not much to them, so one shuts up about the lack of specificity. It could be that the innermost secrets are so bizarre that there’s an attempt to not talk about them because the older members want to hide the silliness of them from the initiates. Such is true of certain religious groups.

Individual lodges have their own traditions. Many follow such a line of succession it’s not uncommon, but being a warden does not guarantee that the next year they will be master of the lodge. Yes, I am on the path to being worshipful master, but I don’t know when that is, there are factors that go into it. Mainly the people who are the most dedicated, go through the ranks the fastest, and that’s the basic way that it works. Seniority is important, but not as important as dedication.

That’s correct, people dictate their actions based upon the social grouping present, and it changes based upon who is in the room. Women are women and men are men, the two having discourse is by it’s nature sexual, because they are of different genders.

No, it is not guaranteed, but there are a lot of things that are eliminated, like competition for the attention of a favored female, or a lack of need for the propriety some feel necessary in the presence of women. I don’t have a problem making dirty jokes in front of my female friends, and there is a great deal of openness in my particular social circle with both men and women, and there are a great deal of complicating factors that introducing the other gender into the equation produces.

Well let’s address your false presumptions first. The most glaring is that you think I need to justify anything to you. I am choosing to participate in this discussion because it’s a topic of interest to me, and you can participate with me if you like, and maybe you’ll learn something about the subject, and maybe you won’t, but I don’t know you past being an entity on the internet and have no vested interest in your approval. The second is that religion/philosophy is generally BS. If you feel that way that is fine, I don’t feel that way, I don’t feel duped by Masonry, I feel like I understand it, but I can’t tell you what the “Light” is, because that is a personal quest. Seeking “More Light in Masonry” is a lifelong pursuit, and it would be presumptuous of me to try and explain it to you in the way you are demanding.

For me, more light in masonry has been any number of things, it’s a greater understanding of history, a deeper understanding of political relationships, understanding more about the society in which I live, how to tie a Windsor knot, and how to wear a suit properly. It is knowing more about heraldry, and the symbolism that has defined much of our culture, it is understanding more deeply what divides social classes, as well as what unites them. It is understanding syncretism that transcends individual religions, it is knowing how organizational hierarchies work, and how they interact with external organizations. It is knowing people from walks of life I would never have known otherwise. It’s understanding geometry, and how certain simple structural principles can be applied to multiple aspects of life. It is also understanding how to subdue my passions and be in greater harmony with myself.

There are a great number of things that I would consider “More Light in Masonry” and to be honest, I simply cannot seperate what I have learned since becoming a mason from other aspects, it has become an integral part of my character, and will remain as such. It’s true, some people can enter into such an organization, and not get it, and feel duped, and some have, but others get a great deal out of it. Some people once in a while appear to be in it just for the extra pins and fancy aprons.

I hope that helps you, even though it is still a rather vague explanation.

Erek

mswas writes:

> The most glaring is that you think I need to justify anything to you.

This is the Straight Dope Message Board. We fight ignorance here. If you’re not interested in telling us something new, what’s the point of us reading any of your posts? Indeed, what’s the point of your posting at all? If you’re just talking to yourself, there are other places to do that. If you’re just saying, “Nyaah, nyaah, nyaah, nyaah, nyaah, I’ve got a secret and I’m not telling you,” you’re not teaching us anything. You’re not fighting ignorance. I’m not trying to approve or disapprove you. I’m trying to figure out what you’re talking about.

> The second is that religion/philosophy is generally BS.

I said no such thing. Religion and philosophy are very important things to me. I have learned much from both of them. Is Masonry a religion or a philosophy? If it is, what does it teach?

> Seeking “More Light in Masonry” is a lifelong pursuit, and it would be
> presumptuous of me to try and explain it to you in the way you are demanding.

So instead you’re just going to say, “Nyaah, nyaah, I’m not telling you anything.”

> For me, more light in masonry has been any number of things, it’s a greater
> understanding of history, a deeper understanding of political relationships,
> understanding more about the society in which I live, how to tie a Windsor
> knot, and how to wear a suit properly.

I can learn all those things more easily than by joining the Masons.

> I hope that helps you, even though it is still a rather vague explanation.

“Vague” is putting it mildly. I don’t understand anything you’ve written. I don’t even understand what the metaphor of “more light in masonry” has to do with learning to tie a Windsor knot, or wearing a suit, or learning about heraldry, or about geometry, or about “structural principles can be applied to multiple aspects of life.”

Ignorance is a willful attempt to avoid knowledge. You are not fighting ignorance. You are perpetuating it. The point is that I did explain it to you, just outside of your very narrow parameters. Expand your parameters and your ignorance may disappear.

You seemed to be bashing religion. The basis of masonry is a pursuit of life using masonry/architecture as metaphorical cornerstones for conducting one’s life and building within their community.

Again, I did tell you something, zoom out a little bit, your microscope might be the wrong tool for you in this particular instance.

That’s wonderful, no one is soliciting your membership, good luck in your pursuit.

I hope you have better luck in your battles with ignorance in the future, than you did this time. I told you about my experience, you dismissed it as irrelevant, what more do you want me to say? Maybe masonry just isn’t for you, and you aren’t meant for it. I attempted to communicate with you, but the attempt failed apparently.

You might have more luck next time if you approach the subject knowing that hte person you’re talking to has no need to justify their existence to you.

Erek

My, my, this has taken a turn for the worse. What is wrong with the Dope nowadays? I realize it is summer and all, but still, our level of civility is taking a crash-dive.

Let’s stick to answering the question about membership numbers. Let’s avoid in this thread and this forum discussing whether Masonry is truly enlightening or just a con. We have another forum for that.

bibliophage
moderator GQ

Reading some of the posts from folks who either were members or were invited to be, but who decided not to continue because of time constraints, I wonder if a lot of the reason these places are declining is because people are working a lot longer now than they used to? Free time is becoming more and more precious, and a lot of people would rather spend that time with their families than with a club?