# Is mental health the real problem when it comes to mass shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933 "2018-02-16T16:16:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/1 "2018-02-16T16:16:01Z")
I’ve seen numerous attempts on this board, on the internet in general, on the radio and on television to shift the blame from firearms to mental health and I would like to discuss that chain of thought in this thread. If the actual problem is the mental health of the people doing the shooting, and not the easy availability of the weapons used, then what should/could be done to alleviate this problem? Should people be mentally screened before getting a gun license and, if so, which mental deviations from the norm should put them on the “Deny” list? Or is this another way to say “There is nothing we can, or intend, to do about this”? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/2 "2018-02-16T16:21:39Z")
No, it’s the number of guns and how easy they are to access ([https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html?ribbon-ad-idx=4&src=trending&module=Ribbon&version=context®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Trending&pgtype=article](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html?ribbon-ad-idx=4&src=trending&module=Ribbon&version=context®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Trending&pgtype=article)). The talk about mental health is a successful attempt by gun fetishists to deflect discussion away from gun control. And no, we’re not going to do anything about it. Mass shootings are just a part of life in America. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/3 "2018-02-16T16:30:29Z")
For sure, integrated mental health services can only help. I can only guess but I would think availability of guns combined with the heightened emotional sensibility of hormonal enriched teenagers might also factor in. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/4 "2018-02-16T16:35:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or is this another way to say “There is nothing we can, or intend, to do about this”? This. My wife has been a clinical mental health therapist for her entire career. Neither she nor any coworkers that I know of have ever dealt with a shooter. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/5 "2018-02-16T16:40:41Z")
You’re setting up a false dichotomy. There are many reasons that we have mass shootings and ignoring any one of them is foolish. Easy access to firearms is certainly a major reason. Mental health is another. Dissolution of community is a third. Saying that we should focus on one to the exclusion of the others is foolish. We should be attacking the problem from all angles and not ignoring either mental health, lack of community or access to firearms. All three need to be addressed at a political and societal level. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/6 "2018-02-16T16:41:20Z")
I do know that the President that just said this was a mental health problem was the same President that [signed a bill revoking Obama era gun checks for mental illness](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221), and that this same President’s proposed budget cuts funding for mental health and school security. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/7 "2018-02-16T16:43:47Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > You’re setting up a false dichotomy. There are many reasons that we have mass shootings and ignoring any one of them is foolish. Easy access to firearms is certainly a major reason. Mental health is another. Dissolution of community is a third. Saying that we should focus on one to the exclusion of the others is foolish. We should be attacking the problem from all angles and not ignoring either mental health, lack of community or access to firearms. All three need to be addressed at a political and societal level. I’m not setting up a false dichotomy-I am asking for specific solutions mental health wise from those that point to mental health as the problem. When it comes to mental health, do _you_ have any possible solutions? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/8 "2018-02-16T16:50:46Z")
Americans have _always_ had easy access to guns. But mass shootings in general and school shootings have only become a fad in the last 2 or 3 decades. Therefore, it is pretty likely that if guns were jumping into people’s hands today and forcing them to pull the trigger, guns would have been behaving that way in the past, too. So it seems to be pretty evident that the fault lies in the people, not the tool. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/9 "2018-02-16T16:53:42Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Americans have _always_ had easy access to guns. But mass shootings in general and school shootings have only become a fad in the last 2 or 3 decades. Therefore, it is pretty likely that if guns were jumping into people’s hands today and forcing them to pull the trigger, guns would have been behaving that way in the past, too. So it seems to be pretty evident that the fault lies in the people, not the tool. And the solution is…? I’m not really looking for what I already stated in the OP. If that is the problem, what specifically should be done about that problem? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/10 "2018-02-16T16:58:42Z")
One thing I know is there are no easy solutions. The biggest problem is people want instant, easy solutions. Now, I tend to think that yes, mental health _plays a part_ in these shootings. How much, I can’t say, since I’m neither a health care professional, nor have I done extensive research on the subject. Another thing I know is it’s difficult (probably not impossible) to get _objective_ information about the topic. I said in another thread \*one \* thing we need to do as a society is de-stigmatize mental health/illness. Talk about it openly and honestly, as have other sensitive subjects, like breast cancer. Mental illness is not a moral failing. But to get back to the point of thread: is mental health the real problem when it comes to mass shootings? I don’t know. I believe it’s part, just as the easy access to guns is a part. Other factors include our tendency to fetishize violence (and not just in video games). Our culture, from the very beginning, has depended on guns. It’s pretty easy to see that in the 18th century, a gun was necessary for survival (think Daniel Boone, Lewis and Clark, etc.) But as time went on, it became less necessary; by the 20th century, it wasn’t really necessary. Yet we still have this Wild West mentality–in Dodge City, KS, you can visit a wax museum dedicated to practitioners of the shooting arts: [Day One - Dodge City | Dodge City CVB, KS](http://www.visitdodgecity.org/index.aspx?NID=138) > [@](#): > > Famous and historic western figures memorialized include Wyatt Earp, “Bat” Masterson, “Doc” Holliday, General George A. Custer, and “Big Nose” Kate Elder, to name just a few. Many of the main cast members of “Gunsmoke” including James Arness, Amanda Blake, Milburn Stone, Ken Curtis, and Buck Taylor are also installed. The Dodge City Trail of Fame includes several larger than life bronze statues such as, “Wyatt Earp, Famous Dodge City Lawman.” In front of the Boot Hill complex, is a life size statue of “Doc” Holliday sitting at the gambling table. We like our guns. We like to think it’s part of our heritage. It’s in our DNA. It’s who we are. (So the thinking goes.) As such, it’s unreasonable to change, and “take away my rights”. So yes, mental health is a part of it. But it’s not the only part. It’s a very complex question, and anyone who thinks there’s a simple solution (“More guns!” “Fewer guns!” “Mental health!”) is deluding themselves. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/11 "2018-02-16T17:02:05Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Americans have _always_ had easy access to guns. But mass shootings in general and school shootings have only become a fad in the last 2 or 3 decades. Therefore, it is pretty likely that if guns were jumping into people’s hands today and forcing them to pull the trigger, guns would have been behaving that way in the past, too. So it seems to be pretty evident that the fault lies in the people, not the tool. Has there been some drastic change in mental health or mental health care in the past 2 decades? Because my obvious answer to you is to flip it and say “There has always been mentally unstable people, therefore it’s pretty likely that a change in firearms availability is the cause of the problem”. And of course, if mental health is the cause of the problem then an obvious fix would be free mental health care. Or stick every unstable guy in prison or a lobotomy clinic as soon as you spot them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/12 "2018-02-16T17:08:07Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > So yes, mental health is a part of it. But it’s not the only part. But it _is_ the part this thread is concerned with. Easy, complex and everything in between-As far as the mental health part of the problem is concerned, what(if any) are possible steps that can be taken? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/13 "2018-02-16T17:09:21Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Has there been some drastic change in mental health or mental health care in the past 2 decades? Because my obvious answer to you is to flip it and say “There has always been mentally unstable people, therefore it’s pretty likely that a change in firearms availability is the cause of the problem”. > > And of course, if mental health is the cause of the problem then an obvious fix would be free mental health care. Or stick every unstable guy in prison or a lobotomy clinic as soon as you spot them. I think there has been a drastic change. No cite, but I had a science magazine (Science 86, published by the AAAS) that said it was recently (in the early to mid-80s) that it was determined children could suffer from depression. Prior, it was thought children’s brains weren’t developed enough to suffer from depression. Understanding, diagnosis, and treatment have almost certainly changed (for the better) in the last 2 decades. Lobotomy? Part of my point is we’re well past One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest type of treatment. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/14 "2018-02-16T17:09:25Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Americans have _always_ had easy access to guns. But mass shootings in general and school shootings have only become a fad in the last 2 or 3 decades… Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/15 "2018-02-16T17:10:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And the solution is…? > I’m not really looking for what I already stated in the OP. If that is the problem, what specifically should be done about that problem? I’m not so sure that there _is_ an easy solution. How do you stop there being people that feel like outcasts, feel that they’ve been wronged, decide that they don’t want to keep on living, and want to go out in a blaze of revenge and glory? You can’t legislate “everybody be nice to everybody.” How can you make everyone forget that the “going out in a blaze of violent glory” meme is something that is in the list of possibilities of things to do? Take away all the guns (if that wouldn’t lead to a bloody literal revolution–which it would) and they still have the idea, so they’ll just use knives, or a car, so the potential death toll might be cut down, but it wouldn’t be eliminated. Armed guards and metal detectors at every door of every school every minute that there are students present? Banning all movies and video games that desensitize to violence and banning anyone from ever mentioning them again, hoping that they will be forgotten? Form a panopticon police state electronically surveying every action of every person all the time? I agree that the genie has been debottled–I’m just not sure that there _is_ a way to squeeze it back in. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/16 "2018-02-16T17:11:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But it _is_ the part this thread is concerned with. Easy, complex and everything in between-As far as the mental health part of the problem is concerned, what(if any) are possible steps that can be taken? I take your point re the thread, so I’ll stick with that, and not hijack it out of topic. And I’ll stick with what steps can be taken–begin to talk about mental health. Get away from the idea that it’s a failing, or weakness, or mistake. That’s a start. Beyond that, I don’t know, as I’m not a professional. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/17 "2018-02-16T17:11:55Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Cite? Which part? Are you wishing to assert that there has been a time when guns weren’t freely and commonly available in America, or are you wishing to assert that spree shootings have always been common? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/18 "2018-02-16T17:15:14Z")
“Is mental health the real problem?” It would be difficult to convince me that anyone who shoots up a schoolyard _doesn’t_ have a mental health problem, at least if you define good mental health as undeviating from the norm. And no, I don’t have a solution other than making it hard for _everyone_ to obtain copious quantities of guns. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/19 "2018-02-16T17:15:15Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I’m not so sure that there _is_ an easy solution. I never asked for an “easy” solution. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/20 "2018-02-16T17:17:02Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Cite? According to Wikipedia, from 1949 to 1981, there were 2 mass shootings (defined by them as 10 or more deaths) in the US. Since 1982, there have been 18. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass\_shootings\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933.md?page=2)