# Is mental health the real problem when it comes to mass shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933 "2018-02-16T16:16:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/21 "2018-02-16T17:17:33Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > I think there has been a drastic change. No cite, but I had a science magazine (Science 86, published by the AAAS) that said it was recently (in the early to mid-80s) that it was determined children could suffer from depression. Prior, it was thought children’s brains weren’t developed enough to suffer from depression. > > Understanding, diagnosis, and treatment have almost certainly changed (for the better) in the last 2 decades. Well, I would agree but that certainly wouldn’t support Darren Garrison’s contention. > [@](#): > > Lobotomy? Part of my point is we’re well past One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest type of treatment. Hey, shock therapy is making a comeback, baby! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/22 "2018-02-16T17:17:48Z")
What about mental screening to acquire a gun license? On the plus side, people could point at their firearms as a sign of mental health. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/23 "2018-02-16T17:22:05Z")
Seriously-If mental health is a problem what mental health abnormalities should be screened for when it comes to denying someone the right to own a firearm? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/24 "2018-02-16T17:26:41Z")
Mental health screening seems a little too intrusive for a Constitutional Right to be exercised. And let’s face it, the majority of gun deaths aren’t caused by a guy who’s obviously “crazy”. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/25 "2018-02-16T17:27:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I never asked for an “easy” solution. What I’m saying is that I don’t know if there is a non-draconian solution at all. Because “society is against me so I’m going to kill myself and take some of them with me” isn’t a thing, it is an idea. Once ideas are out there, wars against those ideas aren’t easy to win (see: war on drug use, war on use of terror tactics.) ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/26 "2018-02-16T17:29:38Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Has there been some drastic change in mental health or mental health care in the past 2 decades? Because my obvious answer to you is to flip it and say “There has always been mentally unstable people, therefore it’s pretty likely that a change in firearms availability is the cause of the problem”. My understanding is that for things that are quantifiable - diagnosis and treatment - these have risen over this time period. This isn’t to say that the existence has increased because it could be a combination of awareness or changing definitions, etc. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I do know that the President that just said this was a mental health problem was the same President that [signed a bill revoking Obama era gun checks for mental illness](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221), and that this same President’s proposed budget cuts funding for mental health and school security. This is misleading because it equivocates on what mental illness is. In the example you cite revoking the yet to be implemented rule on Social Security recipients, this focused on, among other things, those who have Rep Payees to handle their financial affairs. I believe the shooter in Florida was already a client of a mental health facility, but unless he was there because he needed a Rep Payee, saying both fall under the same umbrella as mental illness is very misleading. Florida has what is known as the Baker Act. Many states have something similar (CA is 5150). Essentially what these laws do is allow the state to involuntarily detain someone based on mental health reasons if they meet certain conditions. If the shooter was taken on an involuntary detention, he would have been a prohibited person and no longer allowed to purchase or possess firearms. It seems like everyone knew this person had issues, expelled from school for violence, threats, etc. The FBI investigated a one-off comment about shooting up a school, etc. He was a [client at some mental health treatment facilities](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/who-nikolas-cruz-florida-school-shooter-joked-about-guns-worried-n848266) already. And while I think it would be a net negative to stigmatize the mentally ill, increased assessment when looking at the totality of circumstances seems prudent. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/27 "2018-02-16T17:29:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Seriously-If mental health is a problem what mental health abnormalities should be screened for when it comes to denying someone the right to own a firearm? Off the top of my head, ask about intent when purchasing a license. Of course people will lie (“Do you intend to shoot any other person with this gun?” “Oh, no, officer! I would never do that!”), but it’s better than letting society be a free-for-all. I respect an individual’s rights, and as long as guns are legal, people should be able to get them. Especially since guns were invented nearly 1,000 years ago, it’s pretty obvious they aren’t going anywhere. But more guns in more places isn’t a viable solution. As to abnormalities, and I don’t think I’d use that term, but I’d screen for depression, PTSD, penchant for violence, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/28 "2018-02-16T17:39:18Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > This is misleading because it equivocates on what mental illness is. In the example you cite revoking the yet to be implemented rule on Social Security recipients, this focused on, among other things, those who have Rep Payees to handle their financial affairs. I believe the shooter in Florida was already a client of a mental health facility, but unless he was there because he needed a Rep Payee, saying both fall under the same umbrella as mental illness is very misleading. Thank you for the clarification. > [@Bone](#): > > Florida has what is known as the Baker Act. Many states have something similar (CA is 5150). Essentially what these laws do is allow the state to involuntarily detain someone based on mental health reasons if they meet certain conditions. If the shooter was taken on an involuntary detention, he would have been a prohibited person and no longer allowed to purchase or possess firearms. It seems like everyone knew this person had issues, expelled from school for violence, threats, etc. The FBI investigated a one-off comment about shooting up a school, etc. He was a [client at some mental health treatment facilities](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/who-nikolas-cruz-florida-school-shooter-joked-about-guns-worried-n848266) already. And while I think it would be a net negative to stigmatize the mentally ill, increased assessment when looking at the totality of circumstances seems prudent. Are there any stats that show how many have been detained under this act? ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/29 "2018-02-16T17:48:25Z")
I’ll bite: If it is decided by the powers that be that mental health is a primary factor in mass and school shootings, then it would seem only reasonable that mental health screening should be required before one could purchase a gun. But of course, neither of those things will happen. The “mental health” claim, like the “lost values” and the “there’s nothing we can do” claim are ways to avoid addressing a complex problem. I’d like to see guns treated more like cars- mandatory education, licensing (with renewal intervals of some kind), and insurance. These steps would ensure that mass shooters Cruz, Lanza (Sandy Hook), and Pollock (Harvest Festival) for example, had someone objective interacting with them beyond just the point of sale. Everyone points out the “right shall not be infringed” part while conveniently ignoring the “well regulated” part. I saw an article recently about the guy who manufactured and sold Pollock the specialized bullets Pollock used at the Festival. The guy, Douglas Haig, had been illegally manufacturing and selling- both online and at gun shows- armor piercing bullets for quite some time. [Criminal complaint against Douglas Haig - Documents - Los Angeles Times](http://documents.latimes.com/criminal-complaint-against-douglas-haig/) Requiring that purchasers interact with more people would provide more opportunity to identify folks with odd ideas like Cruz, Lanza, and Pollock- all of whom who made odd comments that should have alerted those interacting with them that something was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/30 "2018-02-16T18:02:41Z")
[Interesting article in The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/us/gun-access-mentally-ill.html) about the problem with trying to limit access to guns because of possible mental illness. > [@](#): > > President Trump urged people to report anyone whose behavior seemed disturbed, despite the fact that there is no law on the books in Florida that would let the authorities take people’s guns in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/31 "2018-02-16T18:11:21Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > lack of community Since you’re putting this on par with mental health and access to guns as an angle on the problem, can I ask how you define this term and how you would address the issue, even in a general sense? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/32 "2018-02-16T18:26:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Interesting article in The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/us/gun-access-mentally-ill.html) about the problem with trying to limit access to guns because of possible mental illness. Trump wants people to report those who are “disturbed”. While serial killers aren’t mass shooters, the common link between people like Gacy, Bundy, and Gary Ridgway is that they killed people, yet weren’t “disturbed,” in the obvious sense. Even Dahmer looked “normal”. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/33 "2018-02-16T18:35:38Z")
It’s a red herring, a deliberate one. I’m not saying gun control is the _correct_ response to the shootings, but it’s a definite that the gun rights people toss out the mental health issue every time they are worried that the gun control advocates are going to use an incident of gun-related violence to promote _their_ agenda. Psychiatrists do an absolutely miserable job of predicting violence, and the predominant relationship of people with a psychiatric diagnosis to violence is in the role of _victim of it_. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/34 "2018-02-16T18:44:53Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > Trump wants people to report those who are “disturbed”. I tried to do that, but the White House switchboard seems to be overloaded for the time being. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/35 "2018-02-16T18:50:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I tried to do that, but the White House switchboard seems to be overloaded for the time being. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![purplehearingaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/36 "2018-02-16T21:00:49Z")
I would think reporting trump would be a good start . He has disturbed behavior on many occasions ! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/37 "2018-02-16T21:16:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or is this another way to say “There is nothing we can, or intend, to do about this”? This is the correct answer. \* “In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”\* ~[Dan Hodges](https://twitter.com/dpjhodges/status/611943312401002496?lang=en) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/38 "2018-02-16T21:30:53Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > This is the correct answer. > \* > “In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”\* ~[Dan Hodges](https://twitter.com/dpjhodges/status/611943312401002496?lang=en) Half right. We can do something about it, we just don’t intend to. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/39 "2018-02-17T01:29:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Mental health screening seems a little too intrusive for a Constitutional Right to be exercised. And let’s face it, the majority of gun deaths aren’t caused by a guy who’s obviously “crazy”. This. Before we can even propose mental health as a solution, you have to ask : how tight would mental health standards have to be to have caught even half of the 18 mass shooters? Would they be so strict that 10% of the population would also count as “crazy”? 5%? even 1%? See the logistics issue is that even if you could say “ok mental health care is free to all, no limit, everyone report everyone who seems disturbed”, it wouldn’t be practical if it turns out you would need to institutionalize 30 million people. Each person in a ‘funny farm’ is going to need a number of man hours from doctors, nurses, guards, and support staff. I wouldn’t be surprised if the ratio was near 1:1. (that is, each person you add needs 40 hours a week from all staffers to keep them treated) So you couldn’t very well have 30 million of our population keeping another 30 million locked up. At a certain point we’d run out of people who could be employed to do anything else. And no, mass execution isn’t the answer - try to execute that big a percentage of the population, and they are gonna fight back, and millions would die in the fighting. At least not today. At some far, far, far future date I can imagine every human being having a control chip that prevents all crime, but that’s a looong way off. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/40 "2018-02-17T01:33:14Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > … At some far, far, far future date I can imagine every human being having a control chip … Sounds awful. Glad I won’t be alive to see it if it happens. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933.md?page=3)