# Is mental health the real problem when it comes to mass shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933 "2018-02-16T16:16:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/141 "2018-02-20T18:47:44Z")
And frickin’ laser beams … ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/142 "2018-02-20T20:36:55Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I don’t think you can do it but for anyone who can, take a couple of steps back and see the insanity of this position. One might ask why a logical solution to an existing problem is considered insane simply because you don’t agree with it. > [@](#): > > Question: why aren’t school cleaners, cooks, school bus drivers, admin staff also trained and armed? Will school maintenance crews be given armed escorts? What part of teachers _and staff_ did you miss? > [@](#): > > The assumption that it’s dysfunctional children and not the world they were brought up in that’s the problem is … fascinating. How the hell did you come up with that moonbeam notion? The problem is insane people who want to hurt other people. How does that problem get solved? I don’t know, but I’m pretty sure one step in the right direction is for law enforcement to not ignore warnings about insane people from the public. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/143 "2018-02-21T02:02:05Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I will be discounted as a SJW by bringing this up, but it is likely that Toxic Masculinity, and the lack of learned coping mechanisms plays a large part. > > It is far more likely to be an artifact of our social rules than DNA. > [@jasg](#): > > Agreed. We have far too many broken boys - failed by their parents and grandparents. Do these parents and grandparents not also fail their daughters and granddaughters? That seems unlikely. > [@drivekiller](#): > > It’s been claimed that 1 in 5 Americans is mentally ill > [Nearly 1 in 5 Americans Suffers From Mental Illness Each Year - Newsweek](http://www.newsweek.com/nearly-1-5-americans-suffer-mental-illness-each-year-230608) It would be interesting to see what they include as diagnoses, which wasn’t something I could find despite following a trail of links for a while. If it’s **anything** that’s in the DSM-5, that includes all people who have neurodevelopmental disorders like ADHD and dyslexia, people who stutter, people with down syndrome and other disorders that cause intellectual disability, insomnia and restless leg syndrome, and people who are dependent on pot. The reason I’m curious is there were similar numbers posted 3 or 4 years ago about the number of US school children with disabilities, and that particular study did in fact include all children with ADHD and dyslexia to get such high numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/144 "2018-02-21T02:10:50Z")
It’s like saying what is the cause of housefires? Is it that houses contain so many flamable items? Well, there’s that but also the fact that there’s so much oxygen everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/145 "2018-02-21T02:31:08Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > The one factor in our current culture that’s most significantly different from previous ones, is the internet and social media and its ability to confer instant fame on people. Commit a mass casualty event and you can capture the attention of the entire country. Everyone’s brain will belong to _you_, even if only for a fleeting moment. Lady Gaga will be tweeting about _you._ LeBron will be tweeting about _you._ The fucking President of the United States will be tweeting about _you._ What sociopathic narcissist could _possibly_ resist this opportunity? Ever hear of Lizzie Borden? Jack the Ripper? The reason we hear more of mass shootings today is that there are more of them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/146 "2018-02-21T02:48:16Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Americans have _always_ had easy access to guns. But mass shootings in general and school shootings have only become a fad in the last 2 or 3 decades. Therefore, it is pretty likely that if guns were jumping into people’s hands today and forcing them to pull the trigger, guns would have been behaving that way in the past, too. So it seems to be pretty evident that the fault lies in the people, not the tool. When I was in college you could walk right onto an airplane with no security checks worth mentioning. Then people started hijacking planes to Cuba, and started hijacking planes for terrorism. What had changed? Were people suddenly into Cuba? No, it was copycat - just like the mass killings today. Now one way of dealing with the hijacking problem could have been more money for better intelligence, messaging, public service messages and the like. Air marshals too. No doubt it would have helped some. But what was done was to keep the weapons off the planes. Luckily the NRA of the day didn’t claim that the 2nd Amendment allowed guns on planes. The only way you are going to stop copycat killers is to keep rapid fire weapons out of their hands. There is no other way. And it probably means something like keeping these weapons in firing ranges where they can be enjoyed without making them available to the dangerous among us. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/147 "2018-02-21T02:50:50Z")
When compared with other first world nations, the USA stands out for its gun death rate [List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate) and its gun ownership rate [Estimated number of civilian guns per capita by country - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country) . Just as thoughts and prayers are a diversion from the core issue, mental health is also a diversion from the core issue. The core issue is that you are awash with guns, which results in an insanely high gun death rate when compared to the rest of the first world. Improving mental health is a worthy cause, but if you want to deal with gun deaths, you will have to take the 2nd amendment bull by the horns and put first world gun control in place. Anything less will only be a band-aid pretending to be a tourniquet. Look to other first world nations. Identify what makes the USA so tremendously different from them, and you will find your answer: gun ownership per capita. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/148 "2018-02-21T03:44:18Z")
It’s really weird watching Americans the mental gymnastics required to dismiss the most obvious solution, which has proven to be effective in other comparable countries. At the end of the day it’s up to America if it wants guns and the answer it seems is, yes it does want guns, and it is prepared to bear the negative consequences, but the self-deceit is frustrating to behold. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/149 "2018-02-21T05:13:27Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Ever hear of Lizzie Borden? Jack the Ripper? > The reason we hear more of mass shootings today is that there are more of them. I really doubt that the people you’ve mentioned did it for the attention. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/150 "2018-02-21T07:33:48Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > How the hell did you come up with that moonbeam notion? The problem is insane people who want to hurt other people. How does that problem get solved? I don’t know, but I’m pretty sure one step in the right direction is for law enforcement to not ignore warnings about insane people from the public. This is very hardened. Teenagers having a hard time is not news, whether it’s caused by their upbringing, bullying, the way they look, etc. What does make the news is when that teenager becomes alienated, disconnected, and HE doesn’t have access to mental health counseling but does have access to firearms. Teens going through troubled times are not “insane”. I sometimes wonder if the issue isn’t guns but a lack of societal compassion. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/151 "2018-02-21T07:36:21Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > I really doubt that the people you’ve mentioned did it for the attention. The point was that old mass murderers got plenty of press. Lizzie Borden, if she did it, didn’t do it for attention. Given the coverage of the Ripper killings, I wouldn’t doubt that he did. In any case the killers who kill themselves might have had other motives, since they didn’t stick around to get the attention. This most recent one seems to have had issues with the school among other things. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/152 "2018-02-21T14:13:49Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > It’s like saying what is the cause of housefires? Is it that houses contain so many flamable items? Well, there’s that but also the fact that there’s so much oxygen everywhere. I like this thought. Meme version: Blaming everything but guns for gun violence is like blaming oxygen for housefires. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/153 "2018-02-24T11:52:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I like this thought. > > Meme version: Blaming everything but guns for gun violence is like blaming oxygen for housefires. And publishing statistics about Skittles cavities and calling Skittles “the oxygen of Skittles cavities” is not meme-tastic? Why is “gun violence” a metric beyond hoplophobia? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/154 "2018-02-24T12:34:28Z")
Teenagers can have a tough time all over the world, and there are a number of other first-world countries where they potentially have access to firearms (Canada, Australia, and New Zealand for example) but don’t decide to use them to shoot up a school. Mental health is a huge issue when it comes to mass shootings because sane people don’t shoot other people because voices in their head tell them to, or they’ll show everyone who laughed at them, or whatever. Part of it is also that guns are generally seen as tools or sporting goods in places like Australia and NZ (and, I understand, Canada) - they’re not owned for self-defence or because a 200 year old parchment says they can. The other thing is mental health treatment is free (to varying extents) in countries with Universal Health Care - which means people can get help before they get to the going off the deep end part. Then you’ve got the inequality thing too - I don’t think there’s many other 1st world countries where so many people’s lives can just suck so spectacularly that there’s no way out, no help, and no prospect of things getting better because the deck is stacked agains them - all while living right next door to people who live the sort of lives you see on TV sitcoms all the time. It would be interesting if the US Federal Government said “Anything that looks like a modern-era assault rifle is banned” - so no AR-15 or AK-47 appearance rifles, but Ruger Mini-14s and M1 Garands and SKS rifles are A-OK. Would mass shooters suddenly start switching to the “non-banned” rifles, or would there be a reduction? I mean, no-one has _any_ idea what to do at this point so regardless of whether the plan works it would provide some useful data for the next step (even if the next step is “Hey, it worked. OK, let’s leave it alone now.”) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/155 "2018-02-24T12:56:10Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Part of it is also that guns are generally seen as tools or sporting goods in places like Australia and NZ (and, I understand, Canada) - they’re not owned for self-defence or because a 200 year old parchment says they can. Not just “self defense”. For many Americans, there is a strong association between guns and “freedom”. They like to think that a gun allows them to not have to depend on the government for protection, or will even provide protection from a tyrannical government. IMHO, it’s part of a larger American attitude of “fuck everyone else”, which is part of the problem. > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Would mass shooters suddenly start switching to the “non-banned” rifles, or would there be a reduction? I mean, no-one has _any_ idea what to do at this point so regardless of whether the plan works it would provide some useful data for the next step (even if the next step is “Hey, it worked. OK, let’s leave it alone now.”) Mass shooters could conceivably switch to hunting rifles or pistols. It would still save lives though as even semi-auto hunting rifles are more unwieldy than AR-15s at close range and pistol rounds are less destructive than rifle rounds and have less range and accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/156 "2018-02-24T13:40:42Z")
How many millions of Americans are diagnosed with some mental illness? Many of those wouldn’t be a danger even if armed with a gun. Was Nikolas Cruz ever diagnosed with mental illness? Some people are just assholes. (Is “asshole-ism” even a category in DSM-5?) _ **But there were many people who knew that Nikolas Cruz, regardless of any psychiatric report, should not be allowed to handle loaded guns.** _ In some states, e.g. California, his mother would have had the right to petition a judge to deny him his “2nd Amendment right.” But Florida is not one of those states … > [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > … we still have this Wild West mentality–in Dodge City, KS, you can visit a wax museum dedicated to practitioners of the shooting arts:… > We like our guns. We like to think it’s part of our heritage. It’s in our DNA. It’s who we are. (So the thinking goes.) _ **During the “Golden Age of the American Gun”, gun control was MUCH stricter than it is today!** _ [The carrying of firearms was strictly prohibited in Dodge City.](https://i.stack.imgur.com/mq6Tm.jpg). > [@N.Y. Times Opinion](#): > > [In Dodge City] Laws were drawn up banning livestock on the sidewalks; horses above the ground floor; public drunkenness and disorderly conduct; the carrying of guns within the town limits (all who entered had to place their weapons on pegs provided in most public places), and the discharge of firearms within the city limits except on such holidays as the Fourth of July and New Year’s Day. > > _ **The gun toter was subject to being shot on sight by the town police. Strict gun control was vital for public safety.** _ > [@Sign in Wichita](#): > > _ **“Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check.”** _ ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Krupe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Leo\_Krupe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Krupe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/157 "2018-02-24T17:25:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Not just “self defense”. For many Americans, there is a strong association between guns and “freedom”. They like to think that a gun allows them to not have to depend on the government for protection, or will even provide protection from a tyrannical government. IMHO, it’s part of a larger American attitude of “fuck everyone else”, which is part of the problem. I think there’s much truth to this. America has this idea that we’re soooo independent and we don’t need anyone else. From the Declaration of Independence to the stereotypical idea of “lifting yourself by your own bootstraps,” we have to do it on our own, even if that means forsaking “common sense” (whatever that means). In fact, this is an idea I’m kicking around, trying to put it in a cohesive pattern–that given our history and culture, I’m not really sure if there is a good solution other than time. America is considered a young country (compared to most of Europe or China), that we haven’t had a chance to “mature” out of the idea of violence solving everything. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933/158 "2018-02-24T18:02:39Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > And publishing statistics about Skittles cavities and calling Skittles “the oxygen of Skittles cavities” is not meme-tastic? No, that would make a terrible meme. It doesn’t make any sense, and unlike guns being involved in every act of gun violence, skittles are not involved in all cavities. > [@](#): > > Why is “gun violence” a metric beyond hoplophobia? Because you don’t have to be a hoplophobe in order to prefer that fewer people killed killed by guns. The idea of labeling anyone who would like to see less gun violence a hoplophobe is a useful, if very disingenuous tactic of the right. It ranks right up there with the mind reading skills. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mental-health-the-real-problem-when-it-comes-to-mass-shootings/808933.md?page=7)