# Is meritocracy overrated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385 "2018-07-06T13:46:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/61 "2020-09-09T04:14:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > As for Asian kids, I was on a GATE parents group for our district, which has lots of Asian parents. Not all that poor. The Asian parents seemed to care a lot more about their kids getting enriched. In our library the mother who is checking out a dozen books for a little kid is Asian. Asian kids get pushed. This may or may not be a good thing, but it is true. > On the other hand, I was on Site Council for the mostly white high school my kids went to. When they were selecting a new principal, I was in a meeting where the kind of principal parents wanted was outlined. Mostly it was support for the sports program. When I got up and said that a drive for academic excellence should be the highest priority, they looked at me like I was nuts. > I understand this because 60 years ago when I was growing up Jewish kids and Jewish parents occupied the same niche. My parents supported me in academics, and they weren’t rich. There is one doctor, one lawyer and one PhD among the five cousins in my mother’s side. > Family attitudes do a lot. But money helps also. Is this deja vu or did you post almost this exact same story a while back? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/62 "2020-09-09T06:58:11Z")
Probably, since the thread was 2 years old. ---
**Author:** ![ThisIsTheEnd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisistheend/32/4713_2.png) [@ThisIsTheEnd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisIsTheEnd)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/63 "2020-09-09T08:03:16Z")
This thread just didn’t have what it takes. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/64 "2020-09-09T11:11:32Z")
> [@bump](#): > > let’s say that we’re talking Army officers. Let’s say that one is somehow clearly disadvantaged by not having quite the same education as his white peers , and therefore he doesn’t do as well on the performance exams for that reason. Do you really think that this guy should get a leg up because of that? Remember, people’s lives depend on whether or not this guy is a competent officer. When I was in college a guy I played racquetball with wanted to join the team. He tried out for the team and beat one of the other players head to head. The other player was selected and my guy wasn’t. Why? Because the coach thought the other player could be coached up to be a better player in the long run. Does your performance exam measure how good an officer you will have in the long run, or how good an officer you will have today? > [@bump](#): > > At the end of the day, isn’t the point of the race to see who’s fastest, Exactly, and if one of the runners goes 90 yards in less time than another who goes 100 yards, who’s fastest? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/65 "2020-09-09T13:10:43Z")
Agreed. Too much emphasis these days on hindering those with “privilege” instead of bringing up the “non-privileged” Why? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/66 "2020-09-09T13:15:26Z")
Because the privileged control the narrative. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/67 "2020-09-09T13:27:04Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > When I was in college a guy I played racquetball with wanted to join the team. He tried out for the team and beat one of the other players head to head. The other player was selected and my guy wasn’t. Why? Because the coach thought the other player could be coached up to be a better player in the long run. > > Does your performance exam measure how good an officer you will have in the long run, or how good an officer you will have today? How do you know who will be better in the long run? All too frequently minorities get judged by what they have achieved while white men get judged by what they might achieve. I see this in sports where a kid with better stats gets passed over by the white coach for a kid that has “potential” and the kid with potential is almost always white. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Exactly, and if one of the runners goes 90 yards in less time than another who goes 100 yards, who’s fastest? Why are they running different distances? Just give them the same test and see who does better. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/68 "2020-09-09T13:28:17Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Agreed. Too much emphasis these days on hindering those with “privilege” instead of bringing up the “non-privileged” > > Why? What do you mean by privilege in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/69 "2020-09-09T13:34:50Z")
Well, I can’t rightly speak on what they consider privilege, but I’d imagine that someone would argue that someone with good parents who consider education to be paramount, privileged. And it is something that HAS been argued in this thread when they change the narrative to say you must have good or better parents than other poor folks. Showing that poor Asians are directly discriminated against by diversity quotas, or discriminated against for having better parents flies directly in the face of the systemic racist arguments, regarding keeping poor minorities down. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/70 "2020-09-09T13:51:05Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Why are they running different distances? Just give them the same test and see who does better. That’s kinda the problem. Life doesn’t work that way, and some have a longer way to go to get to the finish line. Some also have hurdles to get over, while others get a flat track. Giving them the same test would be equalizing the opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/71 "2020-09-09T13:55:24Z")
And unless you are going to strip all parental rights from everyone and make sure we give them equal upbringing, opportunities (as you are trying to define them) will always be different. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/72 "2020-09-09T14:03:08Z")
I don’t think that we need to strip parental rights in order to give good education and role models to the younger generation. And it is less about excelling than surviving. I can accept that a child with a highly educated and motivated parent may have opportunities for advancing in life more than one with more lax parents. However, that should not mean that a child is unable to get the skills that they need in order to navigate life, and be able to offer their child a better future than they had. We _should_ strive to create equality of opportunity, and I agree that that will be a constant goal, one that probably can never be fully achieved. The closer we are to equality of opportunity, the closer the outcomes will be as well. However, we do need to have at least a floor on outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/73 "2020-09-09T14:11:14Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Why are they running different distances? Just give them the same test and see who does better. Different distances is an analogy, and has it’s flaws, conceptually, it IS the same test, but the advantages of privilege are similar to running a shorter distance. We could adjust the analogy, and say that it’s a “blind” test, where the officials do not watch the run, but simply record the result, to ensure they don’t “favor” any particular runner. One runner in this 100m dash has trained with his high school team, has been coached in good form, has a proper set of starting blocks, and has run this exact race hundreds of times. The other has never been part of a track team, is wearing boots and jeans, and is going from a standing start. In one sense the test is completely fair. In another sense, it isn’t. The child who hasn’t had the privilege of coaching and good equipment will have a slower time than the other, even if they are otherwise equal. Since we’re not talking about some D3 track team, but a person’s opportunities to succeed in our society, we should take more notice of that person’s circumstance, particularly since our society’s prior choices impacted those circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/74 "2020-09-09T14:12:14Z")
Read my last paragraph. My point isn’t to leave the kids with the disadvantages, or who start behind to languish, but rather to set things up so that they’re all running the same race from the start. But applying different standards and rules to people where there’s an objective outcome is not a good plan either. You want the best you’ve got at the moment, as identified by whatever yardsticks you have. The goal is to make it to where the yardsticks are actually measuring actual merit, not having started on third base, or starting in the dugout, instead of at home plate. Look at it this way - do you want a pilot flying your airliner who got their job because they passed some easier FAA minority licensing test, or do you want the pilot who passed the standard FAA licensing test? That minority person might have the potential to be the best pilot ever, but for your flight tomorrow morning, would you want the fully credentialed pilot, or the one who was tested to a lesser extent, because he grew up in poverty? That’s the sort of thing I’m talking about- the point would be to make sure that ALL potential pilots are capable of taking the licensing exams from the same starting point, not to fudge the scores or standards for people who aren’t quite up to snuff exam-wise. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/75 "2020-09-09T14:26:26Z")
That’s a pretty good example. Of course we would only qualified pilots flying our planes. However, you are looking at the finish line, not the start. In order to become a pilot, you have to have the money to train yourself. There are no public pilot schools(unless you join the military, which has its own disparities). So, the most of those that show up for the test are the ones who started off in a relatively privileged position. For every person who qualifies for a commercial pilots license, a bunch of people that would have had the skills and aptitude to be just as good or better never even got a chance to sit in a cockpit. We are(/were pre-covid, that changes things, maybe temporarily, maybe permanently, but anyway) facing a pilot shortage. The reason for this is not because of a lack of people that want to fly, nor a lack of people who would probably be good at flying, but a lack of people with the resources to become a commercial pilot. Do you want the pilot flying your airliner who passed a test with lower standards, because they had to lower the standards in order to get enough pilots? Or do you want to increase the pool of applicants to ensure that the spots are filled by the most qualified individuals? Many industries are in this situation, where they have a lack of people who are qualified to do the work that needs to be done. This isn’t due to a lack of people willing to do the work, but a lack in the investment society makes in those it doesn’t see as worthwhile. If you don’t care about the individual, care about yourself. It is selfish to want to live in a society that has more qualified people to choose from, rather than only choosing from those who started with relatively privileged backgrounds. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/76 "2020-09-09T15:03:19Z")
One other thing I’d like to hurl out into the void is that while we can discuss the importance of merit for airline pilots and others whose jobs literally place lives in their (hopefully) capable hands, the other 99% of the economy doesn’t. These other workers put peoples lives at risk mostly when they drive to and from work, the rest of the time, they’re just doing a job, and there’s no particular reason to demand the same level of meritocracy for them as we would for an airline pilot or bridge engineer. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/77 "2020-09-09T15:07:11Z")
I think we’re actually agreeing on this, just starting from opposite ends of the problem. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > One other thing I’d like to hurl out into the void is that while we can discuss the importance of merit for airline pilots and others whose jobs literally place lives in their (hopefully) capable hands, the other 99% of the economy doesn’t. These other workers put peoples lives at risk mostly when they drive to and from work, the rest of the time, they’re just doing a job, and there’s no particular reason to demand the same level of meritocracy for them as we would for an airline pilot or bridge engineer. Sort of… there are a lot of positions that may have long lasting and pervasive effects on someone’s life, in a physical health way, or in an opportunity/financial security way. Law clerks, judges, lawyers, investment planners, health care workers- even the people who do the quickie-physical (“Know your Numbers”) type stuff, various IT people in all sorts of industries, etc… They may not have immediate life or death consequences to their work, but fuck-ups can have very dire consequences. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/78 "2020-09-09T15:10:08Z")
It probably would if most people weren’t tribal shitheads who love to exert whatever power they have over others they deem unworthy or too different. In other words people suck. Behaviors we attempt to correct or forbid in children get a pass and a shrug once a person has attained “adulthood”. The biggest babies with the poorest behavioral management skills that I’ve met have been exclusively adults. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/79 "2020-09-09T15:17:20Z")
We absolutely would need to strip parental rights if we are talking about surviving, or we are going to move goal posts to offer greater opportunities to those with poor (or no) parental involvement. If the children are unable to navigate life, and parents are unable to offer better for their kids than they had, we should be taking the kids. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/80 "2020-09-09T15:18:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The closer we are to equality of opportunity, the closer the outcomes will be as well. This is not a given. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385.md?page=5)