# Is meritocracy overrated? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385 "2018-07-06T13:46:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/161 "2020-09-10T20:34:55Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Well, you certainly don’t sound like you know what you’re talking about in that arena. If I’m not mistaken, it’s: **ASL\_v2.0, Esq.** ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/162 "2020-09-10T20:57:23Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I recently read an op-ed piece in the Times advocating that orchestras stop using blind auditions (the candidate plays behind a curtain) for hiring. The reason was that it didn’t lead to hiring enough black musicians. The author of the piece advocated racial quotas in hiring. Now it obviously is not true that blacks lack musical talent. There are many possible explanations. Maybe blacks don’t get the opportunities for classical musical training. Cf. what “La sistema” has done to produce musicians of the caliber of Gustavo Dudamel. Another possibility is that for cultural reasons blacks tend towards jazz, rock, and other modern forms of music. A third possibility is that they cannot afford to travel the audition trail, which is quite expensive in travel and hotel expenses. Tommasini seems to present a very… interesting position. I don’t particularly see the relevance between how musical skill is _obtained_ and its utility, at least not when we’re talking about orchestras. With improv and composition I recognize the benefit of diversity. But Tommasini didn’t argue that diversity has anything to do with musical skill in the formal orchestral setting. He asserted that, essentially, most of the top-tier players are equally qualified for the job. That **there is pretty much a skill ceiling** , and there are more people hanging from the ceiling than seats in the orchestras. “It’s like an elite college facing a sea of applicants with straight A’s and perfect test scores.” **At this point meritocracy is useless** , and we have to pick and choose, so instead of relying on random chance let’s “embrace diversity as a social virtue” and factor in race and gender. I can’t deny that racial and gender quotas are unfair to applicants. I also can’t deny the public benefit a community might reap if their orchestras accurately represent the community’s demographics. It is inspiring for a young person to see someone of their race and gender living the dream. But, I think in the ideal world, it wouldn’t be inspiring to see someone of your own race and gender on the stage. Ideally, there would be no _need_ to identify with them by race or gender. There would be no common racial experience - good or bad - which sets that person apart from the other person. In other jobs, for example vocalists, there are differences that are actually relevant to job performance between the male and female, or people of different cultural backgrounds. Not so in the orchestra if we’ve ruled out improv and composition - you can correct me if I’m wrong. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/163 "2020-09-10T20:58:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, it’s not just white or black, it is hispanic too? Your OP made the fallacious claim that “we ought to live in a Harrison Bergeron dystopia”, and then you moved the goalposts from there. Yes the Harrison Bergeron dystopia is a world where the government tries to equalize results. And where do i say it’s black/white? I specifically say I don’t want to discuss the descendants of american slaves and american indians. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You keep adding in things and moving the goal posts. Your complaints about hispanics are not related to your own OP. From the article:"De Blasio says the schools “have a diversity problem.” Blacks and Hispanics comprise just 10 percent of these schools, compared with 68 percent of the city’s student body as a whole. The tests are said to favor one group, Asians, who make up 62 percent of the students. " Combine that with my desire to pull out things like slavery and genocide from the conversation, youa re basically left with whites and hispanics. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > If I’m not mistaken, it’s: **ASL\_v2.0, Esq.** I would think a lawyer might know that median is a form of average but they don’t make lawyers like they used to. And if he is a lawyer and somehow thinks that all law school graduates are somehow equal, then he sounds profoundly ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/164 "2020-09-10T21:10:40Z")
> [@bump](#): > > So what are we to do? Should we do something? I mean, if a family doesn’t value education, there’s little that the school district or anyone else can do to change that- those children are unfortunately primed for a life of underachievement. Similarly, families that highly prioritize education are going to do better overall, regardless of what the school district does or doesn’t do. And it’s kind of not anyone else’s business either. I think we agree with the points in your first two paragraphs. A teacher once told us that the parents who showed up for parent-teacher conferences were exactly the ones who didn’t need to. One thing we could do is to signal that academic success is a good thing. The person who excels at sports is never made fun of, but the person who excels at academics is a dweeb, a brainiac, you know the slanders. We have letters for basketball, we don’t have letters for calculus. This isn’t an issue for kids with parents who care about this stuff, but there are probably plenty of smart kids who are ashamed of being smart. Intelligence counts more in lots of businesses, but by then it is too late for a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/165 "2020-09-10T21:14:47Z")
ISTM that until and unless we develop an objectively flawless method for evaluating merit, the principle of meritocracy will never be unassailable. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/166 "2020-09-10T21:23:57Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > At this point meritocracy is useless, and we have to pick and choose, so instead of relying on random chance let’s “embrace diversity as a social virtue” and factor in race and gender. > > I can’t deny that racial and gender quotas are unfair to applicants. I also can’t deny the public benefit a community might reap if their orchestras accurately represent the community’s demographics. It is inspiring for a young person to see someone of their race and gender living the dream. I may as well offer my own opinion, which is less than firm. If the applicants accurately reflected the community demographics, then a somewhat random hiring process (after culling all the subpar candidates) would somewhat reflect community demographics. It is plausible that diversity in orchestras will inspire more diverse student bodies in music education. I already assumed that there are no inherent differences in race or gender when it comes to playing instruments in the formal orchestral setting. If there aren’t any race or gender based cultural differences or discriminatory practices holding down students during the education process, then eventually the feedback loop will close as top-tier musicians accurately reflect community demographics. But that’s the rub: we have to be constantly vigilant against discriminatory practices downstream, we have to take into account cultural differences that might account for merit disparity, _then_ a temporary quota system might be justified. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/167 "2020-09-10T21:46:49Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > ISTM that until and unless we develop an objectively flawless method for evaluating merit, the principle of meritocracy will never be unassailable. Nobody is saying we have a perfect way of measuring merit. Fareed Zakaria’s last sentence is: “Meritocracy is under assault, but those who attack it should ask themselves: What would you replace it with? To select a society’s elites, as Churchill said of democracy, a meritocracy is the worst system — except for all the others.” > [@Max\_S](#): > > I may as well offer my own opinion, which is less than firm. If the applicants accurately reflected the community demographics, then a somewhat random hiring process (after culling all the subpar candidates) would somewhat reflect community demographics. You sure about that? Stuyvesant takes the top 800 students every year. It is about 75% asian, 20% white, and 5% black/hispanic. The next 750 students tend to go to bronx science which is 65% asian 25% white and 10% black/hispanic. Then there is brooklyn tech with about 1450 students per year which is about 60% asian, 25% white and 15% black/hispanic. The population of NYC is about 9% asian, 43% white and 44% black/hispanic. I suspect you would have to expand the population of students in the stuyvesant lottery to almost the entire school age population in order to achieve parity. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/168 "2020-09-10T21:53:47Z")
You would need to provide a breakdown of the _top-tier applicants_ to disprove my claim, which is based on mathematical deduction. It follows from the basic premise of probability theory: a large enough random sample will be an accurate sample. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/169 "2020-09-10T21:59:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > If I’m not mistaken, it’s: **ASL\_v2.0, Esq.** No, it’s not. I feel I have to return to say that explicitly. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/170 "2020-09-10T22:19:25Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > No, it’s not. I feel I have to return to say that explicitly. Disbarred, eh? What’d you do? ---
**Author:** ![Acerbic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acerbic/32/3695_2.png) [@Acerbic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acerbic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/171 "2020-09-10T22:42:56Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > If there is evidence of racial discrimination then we ought to address the racial discrimination rather than cancel a program if we otherwise think the program is favorable. The beautiful part is that you don’t have to cancel the program. Schools that started testing every student for the gifted program have seen a marked increase in minority inclusion. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > This is exactly what the OP article is about. The selection process is open to everyone. But one group is dominating the admissions process. Poor asian kids have crowded out mostly white students over the past 40 years and now they want to change the process. Blacks and hispanics were always underrepresented at these schools but now whites are under-represented as well. It’s funny how the political will to change admissions standards doesn’t materialize until white kids become underrepresented. Some people call that a convergence of interest. When the interest of white people happen to align with the interest of black people you have a better chance of seeing some change. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/172 "2020-09-11T00:18:02Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > You would need to provide a breakdown of the _top-tier applicants_ to disprove my claim, which is based on mathematical deduction. It follows from the basic premise of probability theory: a large enough random sample will be an accurate sample. All the applicants for all the schools come from a common pool. ’ More than 27,500 students [took the SHSAT last year.](https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2019/03/19/by-the-numbers-new-york-citys-specialized-high-school-offers/) Of those, 18% where white,and 30% were Asian. Yet Asian test-takers earned just over half of all offers to the specialized schools and white students received 29% of the offers. While 24% of test-takers were Hispanic and 20% were black, those students together earned just over 10% of admissions offers. The racial disparities are glaring given that black and Hispanic students account for two-thirds of students citywide." [The SHSAT is this weekend. Here’s what you need to know about NYC’s controversial admissions exam. - Chalkbeat](https://ny.chalkbeat.org/2019/10/24/21121760/the-shsat-is-this-weekend-here-s-what-you-need-to-know-about-nyc-s-controversial-admissions-exam#:~:text=More%20than%2027%2C500%20students%20took,received%2029%25%20of%20the%20offers). > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > No, it’s not. I feel I have to return to say that explicitly. Then most of your posts on that topic are mostly decent assumptions but incorrect. > [@Acerbic](#): > > The beautiful part is that you don’t have to cancel the program. Schools that started testing every student for the gifted program have seen a marked increase in minority inclusion. that sounds like a great plan. One of the suggested methods of increasing the black population at stuyvesant is to have everyone take the test. > [@Acerbic](#): > > Some people call that a convergence of interest. When the interest of white people happen to align with the interest of black people you have a better chance of seeing some change. I suspect that the interests of black people is not required unless you needed cover to push the interests of white people. In any event, isn’t this a case of politically powerful groups pushing around politically weak groups? Isn’t that a form of oppression? ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/173 "2020-09-11T00:22:29Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > So it is not that meritocracy is inherently wrong; it is that it has never been seriously tried. This was my immediate reaction to the thread title- “Not overrated, underutilized.” ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/174 "2020-09-11T00:23:52Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > This was my immediate reaction to the thread title- “Not overrated, underutilized.” This sounds suspiciously like true scottsman territoty. ---
**Author:** ![Acerbic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acerbic/32/3695_2.png) [@Acerbic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acerbic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/175 "2020-09-11T00:48:54Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > I suspect that the interests of black people is not required unless you needed cover to push the interests of white people. In any event, isn’t this a case of politically powerful groups pushing around politically weak groups? Isn’t that a form of oppression? Welcome to democracy. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/176 "2020-09-11T00:49:05Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Then most of your posts on that topic are mostly decent assumptions but incorrect. That simply does not follow. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/177 "2020-09-11T01:17:26Z")
> [@Acerbic](#): > > Welcome to democracy. So when white people pushed around black people, that was just democracy too? Or is it only democracy when asians are the ones getting pushed around? ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/178 "2020-09-11T01:26:36Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > That simply does not follow. Putting aside your embarassing analysis about how about medians are not averages… The notion that law schools like stanford chase lsat scores to move up the usnwr rankings is pretty inaccurate. Law school grades particularly 1st year law school grades are graded on a pretty strict curve at most schools. Law school exams are almost all essay afaict for first years. There is pretty good positive correlation between lsat scores and 1st year grades. Noone at stanford really thinks much about the bar. Its not really considered a hurdle, more of a formality. So I repeat, I don’t think you know what you’re talking about when it comes to law school admission, law school, the bar or the profession. ---
**Author:** ![Acerbic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acerbic/32/3695_2.png) [@Acerbic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acerbic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/179 "2020-09-11T01:37:23Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > So when white people pushed around black people, that was just democracy too? Or is it only democracy when asians are the ones getting pushed around? Both. And for the record, I’m not a big fan of anyone being pushed around. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385/180 "2020-09-11T01:45:44Z")
> [@Acerbic](#): > > Both. And for the record, I’m not a big fan of anyone being pushed around. So then do you think that what is happening in nyc is both oppression and democracy? Isn’t our democracy supposed to have safeguards against racial oppression? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-meritocracy-overrated/817385.md?page=10)