# Is Messi the best ever? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 8, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186 "2012-03-08T18:59:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/21 "2012-03-09T16:54:19Z")
> [@glee](#): > > No, seriously, **it was far worse than today**. > Here’s some examples: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIWjPGG8fDY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIWjPGG8fDY) I see what you mean [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Svq3joQuwZE/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AG-AoAC8AGKAgwIABABGFIgZShFMA8=&rs=AOn4CLCzP5DqDExiayhjVZ3Mun4q1oxCyQ "Lionel Messi Fouls The Only Way To Stop Him") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svq3joQuwZE) ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/22 "2012-03-09T16:56:44Z")
How much of **glee** ’s link did you watch? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/23 "2012-03-09T17:12:22Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > How much of **glee** ’s link did you watch? All of it, why? Don’t forget, Messi is only 23, so the Pele video had many more years to cull footage from. And I am not saying that it is worse now or anything, I just don’t buy glee’s claim that it was **far worse** / ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/24 "2012-03-09T17:23:12Z")
I watched Pele play in World Cups, plus supported Spurs for decades and it may be hard to realise just how dirty the game was then. Here’s more: 1. Portugal winning the game (World Cup 1966) was not a surprise. Eusébio scored twice, Tostão scored for the Brazilians, the match result 3-1. However, what caused surprise was the violence to which the Portuguese team resorted. From the start, everytime Pelé touched the ball, he was put down by a Portuguese; in his last play in that Cup, the British television showed that Pelé escaped two fouls, but was violently hit by a third player; Pelé had to be carried out of the field. [http://www.v-brazil.com/culture/sports/world-cup/1966-England.html](http://www.v-brazil.com/culture/sports/world-cup/1966-England.html) 1. Often, defenders would be all over Pele, and he would be fouled and harassed. After years of tolerating this treatment, he began to retaliate and draw yellow cards himself. After an Argentinian player repeatedly kicked him and spat at him, Pele kicked back. > **[Pele (soccer Player) | Encyclopedia.com](https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/sports-and-games/sports-biographies/pele-soccer-player)** > > Pele 1940- Brazilian soccer player The greatest and most famous soccer player in history, Brazil \[1\]'s Pele revolutionized the game with his electrifying, creative and athletic style of play. 1. Red and Yellow cards were only introduced in the 1970 World Cup. Before then football clubs used to have an ‘enforcer’ whose main job was to foul the opposition’s best player: Ron ‘Chopper’ Harris (Chelsea): During the replay at Old Trafford his late tackle on Leeds’ playmaker Eddie Gray after just eight minutes (just one of many late tackles committed by both sides), left the latter a virtual passenger for the rest of the match > **[Ron Harris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Harris_(footballer))** > > Ron or Ronnie or Ronald Harris may refer to: Billy Bremner (Leeds): Leeds had a reputation for being dirty, with Bremner at the forefront alongside equally uncompromising players such as Norman Hunter. As if to emphasise the style of play for which Bremner was known, one of football’s most famous photographs shows a young Bremner pleading his innocence after Tottenham Hotspur’s bulky Scottish midfield player Dave Mackay grabbed him by the shirt and hauled him up following a late tackle by Bremner. **Mackay was just back from a second broken leg**. The snap was taken on 20 August 1966. (bolding mine) > **[Billy Bremner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Bremner)** > > William John Bremner (9 December 1942 – 7 December 1997) was a Scottish professional footballer and manager. Regarded as one of the game's great midfielders, he combined precision passing skills with tenacious tackling and physical stamina. He played for Leeds United from 1959 to 1976, serving as captain from 1965, in one of the most successful periods in the club's history. > At Leeds, Bremner won the First Division (1968–69 and 1973–74), Second Division (1963–64), Inter-Cities Fairs Cup (196... ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/25 "2012-03-09T17:28:26Z")
I don’t know how extensive the footage on Pele is, but I doubt every match he played is available to pick through for Youtube videos. But I think the nature of the fouls is completely different. There’s like a minute and a half of fouls in that first video where not a single defender makes a play on the ball. I’ve never seen tackles like that up around the shoulders and neck in the modern game. There’s no question Messi gets fouled a lot, but my impression is that it’s mostly just regular bad challenges, the majority of which are on the ground, and only occasional fouls like the ones by Chelsea. You could probably get a minute or two of fouls like that on Andy Carroll. When someone like Pepe commits a gratuitous one against Messi it’s a big story. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/26 "2012-03-09T18:06:14Z")
These are always fun arguments to have. I don’t think you can discount the tremendous difference in fitness levels between the eras. Also, I think the European game has gotten better from the massive influx of talent from eastern Europe, Africa and South America. All of the best players now play in Europe which wasn’t always the case twenty years ago. Pele was an incredible player but I think I could have scored on that 1970 Brazil team. He had literally world class players behind him who probably would have won it without him. Maradonna was amazing and won two Serie A titles (in the then toughest league) almost single handidly. He was incredible in the 1986 World Cup though he was fairly well marshalled in the final by the Germans and he did cheat to score against England. To me, that diminishes his greatness in that tournament (and I’m Irish). Cruyff should be higher up on everyone’s list. He helped revolutionize the game and could do anything. A true footballing maestro. George Best may be the single most talented football player I have ever seen. He twice beat Esebio and was a class above in Europe. He stopped being a top class footballer by the age of 26. Messi is truly a brilliant player. I think it’s harder to win the WC now given that there really aren’t any easy games in international football anymore. His coach in the last World Cup was clueless. So based on the above, I think if Messi keeps going the way that he is going then he will be called the greatest of all time. ---
**Author:** ![Cumbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@Cumbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumbrian)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/27 "2012-03-09T18:16:01Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Maradonna was amazing and won two Serie A titles (in the then toughest league) almost single handidly. \*\*He was incredible in the 1986 World Cup though he was fairly well marshalled in the final by the Germans \*\*and he did cheat to score against England. To me, that diminishes his greatness in that tournament (and I’m Irish). Emphasis mine Err - yeah. But who, surrounded by three German defenders, played the perfect through ball through to Burrachaga to score the winner? When the chips were down, Maradona came through (I say this, it had better be Maradona now - it certainly looks like him on Youtube 🙂 ). He cheated to score against us. He also scored a ridiculous goal though (admittedly making Peter Reid and Terry Fenwick look pedestrian would not be beyond Messi but still). I think the thing I would say about Maradona is that he was as total, total arse - a cheating bastard who ended his playing days coked up to the eyeballs screaming into a camera in 1994, a leader who failed to keep his team in check in the 1990 world cup final and cried like a big girl when that cynical bunch of thugs got what they deserved - but all that said, he’s still the greatest player I’ve ever seen. I’d liken him to Ty Cobb for our American readers. Agree on Cruyff. Wonderful player. Wanted to humiliate Germany in 1974 though, rather than just win the game. If they’d won that World Cup, after all his performances in it, he’d probably be on an even higher level than he currently is. ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/28 "2012-03-09T18:36:02Z")
An aside re: best ever. Clearly, everyone puts it between Pele and Maradona, with a possible/likely inclusion of Messi into the discussion. But for the next tier of greats, how big is that group? Off the top of my head, the players that are there are Cruyff, Zidane, Best, Beckenbauer, Platini, and Ronaldo (1). I think Ronaldo (2) is there, but that’s surely not a universal opinion, but I think he’ll retire in this group. Other Brazilians are surely to be included like Romario, Garrincha, and Socrates, and Ronaldinho, but other than 'dinho, I haven’t seen them play. Eusebio is probably there. What about Figo, Baresi, Maldini, DiStefano, Van Basten, Charlton, Weah, and the countless others from before satellite tv made it even a more of a global game? So, who’s in your 2nd tier? ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/29 "2012-03-09T20:27:27Z")
I don’t buy into the Pele/Maradonna duality. Maradonna was better than Pele hands down in my opinion. As was Cruyff. If Messi does win a World Cup he will be considered the greatest player of all time (if he does it in Brazil then doubly so!). ---
**Author:** ![TheBoltEater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheBoltEater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheBoltEater)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2012, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/30 "2012-03-10T04:43:31Z")
Nah. Any Northern Ireland fan can tell you… Maradona good. Pele better. George Best! ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/31 "2012-03-11T00:56:34Z")
> [@TheBoltEater](#): > > Nah. Any Northern Ireland fan can tell you… > > Maradona good. > Pele better. > George Best! Even non Norn Iron fans know this and George did call for an All-Ireland team… Back to Cruyff…one knock against him is his loss in the 1974 WC. Not sure it should be. They lost to a stacked German team including one of the greatest goal scorers of all time in Muller and one of the top 5 players ever in Beckenbauer. In addition, Bertie Vogts had then game of his life and he was already an animal of a defender. No shame losing to that German team. Maybe if he had played in 1978 things might have been different. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/32 "2012-03-11T02:53:54Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Even non Norn Iron fans know this and George did call for an All-Ireland team… > > Back to Cruyff…one knock against him is his loss in the 1974 WC. Not sure it should be. They lost to a stacked German team including one of the greatest goal scorers of all time in Muller and one of the top 5 players ever in Beckenbauer. In addition, Bertie Vogts had then game of his life and he was already an animal of a defender. No shame losing to that German team. Maybe if he had played in 1978 things might have been different. The '74 final is the most stacked final ever. One person that wasn’t brought up in the discussion of best ever is Puskas. Probably the best goal scorer of all time (him or Muller) and dominated club and international football in the '50s. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/33 "2012-03-16T09:17:09Z")
The idea of putting a team on your back and leading them to glory is integral to greatness IMO - The 1990 Argentina team that got to the final (but didn’t win) wouldn’t have gotten out of the group stages without Diego. It doesn’t even have to be the World Cup, necessarily, but until Messi demonstrates this sort of leadership he’ll be playing second fiddle to Maradonna. It may be that he never does it, as he’s clearly a modest sort of person. He’s a lead by example type - watch as I bang 3 past these hapless defenders, but he doesn’t look to have the personality to be more than that. Staying at the same club also runs counter to greatness, although it’s early days for Messi and a few of the other all time greats have done this. As awesome as Messi is, he doesn’t have the panache of Maradonna IMHO. He doesn’t have that level of cocaine to his game. The only other player in modern times who did was fat Ronaldo - a force of nature at his peak, went through defences like a dose of salts. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186/34 "2012-03-17T16:29:09Z")
I agree with the posters that emphasize who different today’s football is. The players are more fit, the pace is a lot faster, they play a lot more games every season, and arguably the pressure is a lot higher with many more people looking over player’s shoulders every step of the way. Seems more difficult to remain levelheaded, but also the impact of not being levelheaded but being more Mario Balotelli like seems to be a lot bigger. > [@mkecane](#): > > There are 2 arguments that work against Messi. One is, as **Jimmy** mentioned, Barca have become a factory. Couldn’t just about _anyone_ look amazing when Xavi and Iniesta (and now Fabregas) are feeding him the ball? Two, why hasn’t he lifted Argentina to greatness like Maradona did? To be fair, it’s hardly the case that Chr. Ronaldo has brought Portugal a whole lot of greatness - they struggled to make it to Poland & Ukraine this year. > [@indian](#): > > I will say so, when he scores a goal better than Maradona’s 2nd goal against England in 96 world cup. There was no World Cup in 1996. > [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > All of it, why? Don’t forget, Messi is only 23, so the Pele video had many more years to cull footage from. And I am not saying that it is worse now or anything, I just don’t buy glee’s claim that it was **far worse** / He’s 24 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-messi-the-best-ever/615186.md?page=1)