# Is Mexico a failed state? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2019, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178 "2019-10-23T05:49:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/1 "2019-10-23T05:49:59Z")
[This was posted a couple of days ago](https://claireberlinski.substack.com/p/on-mexican-state-collapse-a-guest), regarding [the recent fighting in Culiacán](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/20/world/americas/culiacan-mexico-chapo-son.html): > [@](#): > > You may have read the news just a few days back: the Mexican military captured not one but two of El Chapo’s sons in the heart of Culiacán, the Sinaloan capital. One son freed himself—which is to say his entourage and retainers at hand overpowered and killed the soldiers at hand—and then, in a decisive riposte, seized the entire city center of Culiacán to compel the liberation of his brother. > > The forces that emerged were in the literal sense awesome and awful. Heavy weaponry that would be familiar on any Iraqi, Syrian, or Yemeni battlefield was brought to bear. More and worse: custom-built armored vehicles, designed and built to make a Sahel-warfare technical look like an amateur’s weekend kit job, were rolled out for their combat debut. Most critically, all this hardware was manned by men with qualities the Mexican Army largely lacks: training, tactical proficiency, and motivation. > > Then the coup de grace: as the Chapo sons’ forces engaged in direct combat with their own national military, kill squads went into action across Culiacán, slaughtering the families of soldiers engaged in the streets. > > Cowed and overmatched—most crucially in the moral arena—the hapless band of soldiers still holding the second son finally received word from Mexico City, direct from President AMLO himself: surrender. Surrender and release the prisoner. > > It’s an absolutely extraordinary episode even by the grim and bizarre annals of what we mistakenly call the post-2006 Mexican Drug War. The Battle of Culiacán stands on a level above, say, the Ayotzinapa massacre, or the Zetas’ expulsion of the entire population of Ciudad Mier. Killing scores of innocents and brutalizing small towns is one thing: seizing regional capital cities and crushing the national armed forces in open fighting in broad daylight is something else. > > “Drug War” is a misnomer for reasons the Culiacán battle lays bare. This is not a mafia-type problem, nor one comprehensible within the framework of law enforcement and crime. This is something very much like an insurgency now—think of the eruption of armed resistance in Culiacán in 2019 as something like that in Sadr City in 2004—and also something completely like state collapse. … The fact that a drug cartel was able to fight the army to enough of a stalemate that the government acceded to their demand seems … significant. Personally, I find it surprising, and I suppose somewhat impressive in its own right, that a non-state entity has been able to amass this much weaponry and organize such an effective response plan, and that they were so effective in executing it. I suspect more than a few of the world’s militaries would struggle to put together a similar response that they could enact on short notice. OTOH, perhaps the article is making too much out of one botched operation. What do you think? Does this signal darker days ahead for Mexico? The author concludes: > [@](#): > > … Mexico is not an enemy state, and the Mexicans are not an enemy people. Yet as Mexico falls apart, we need to ask ourselves questions normally reserved for objectively hostile nations. There is a war underway. It won’t stop at the border. > > It’s time to look south, and think. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/2 "2019-10-23T05:56:23Z")
The situation with the cartels is not new at all. Or with police corruption. Things have gone seriously downhill in some areas; Monterrey now has a lot more cartel penetration than it did 20 years ago, but it also still has one of the best engineering schools in Latin America (if not the best one). In other areas, things have gotten better. More people have jobs and better jobs now than twenty years ago, globally. Does Mexico have problems? Yes, big ones, and some of them are structural (the whole land-ownership problem for example), but it’s far from a failed state. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/3 "2019-10-23T11:30:49Z")
Mexico is a big country and not everywhere is like that. But… a monopoly on the use of force is a fundamental qualification of a functioning nation-state. A drug cartel being able to fight the army to a draw and extract concessions is a profound failure of the apparatus of state. There isn’t any point in denying that, and the fact Monterrey has a good engineering school has nothing whatsoever to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/4 "2019-10-23T11:43:26Z")
Mexico is in the middle of an ongoing civil war. I don’t think the government has failed yet. If their wealthier neighbor to the north would stop sending guns and money to the insurgency, then the government would quickly regain power in the areas that it was lost. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/5 "2019-10-23T11:50:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Mexico is a big country and not everywhere is like that. > > But… a monopoly on the use of force is a fundamental qualification of a functioning nation-state. A drug cartel being able to fight the army to a draw and extract concessions is a profound failure of the apparatus of state. There isn’t any point in denying that, and the fact Monterrey has a good engineering school has nothing whatsoever to do with that. It was just a way to indicate that most people still manage to live lives that people in developed countries would consider “normal”. A lot of the day-to-day stuff still works roughly as intended. > [@l0k1](#): > > Mexico is in the middle of an ongoing civil war. I don’t think the government has failed yet. If their wealthier neighbor to the north would stop sending guns and money to the insurgency, then the government would quickly regain power in the areas that it was lost. To be fair, I don’t think this time the US government is doing it on purpose. It has many policies which result, among other things, in drug money and drug guns going to Mexico, but it seems to be more through short-sightedness than on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/6 "2019-10-23T12:16:03Z")
Question: Are the Mexican Cartels strictly economic or are there political or ideological components? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/7 "2019-10-23T13:01:54Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > Question: Are the Mexican Cartels strictly economic or are there political or ideological components? Like any company, their overarching concern is strictly economic. How they accomplish making money may vary depending on circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/8 "2019-10-23T14:46:14Z")
Well if its such a good place, then why do so many want to move here or have people here sending them money? No, its not a Somalia like failed state but it has some messed up areas. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/9 "2019-10-23T15:05:53Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well if its such a good place, then why do so many want to move here or have people here sending them money? > > No, its not a Somalia like failed state but it has some messed up areas. Don’t forget, some Americans are moving there too. My brother, for example, is building a beach house in Mexico right now. I was in Mexico last week. No one I talked to expressed a desire to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/10 "2019-10-23T15:11:33Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Don’t forget, some Americans are moving there too. My brother, for example, is building a beach house in Mexico right now. > > I was in Mexico last week. No one I talked to expressed a desire to leave. I have some friends who moved to the Lake Chapala area about five years ago. They love it and have no desire to move back to the US. I almost joined them, but I got a job offer in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/11 "2019-10-23T18:29:54Z")
If the narcos move in, they move in. San Miguel de Allende is an awesome, little town, and it has a sizeable expat community as well. I’m not sure how serious the situation is, but I read a few weeks ago that some cartel was making overtures by trying to extort some restaurants. Once that happens, it’s really hard to stop the cascade. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/12 "2019-10-24T05:25:17Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > its not a Somalia like failed state but it has some messed up areas. That applies to the US as well. In different ways it applies to any countries larger than Andorra and a few smaller ones. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/13 "2019-10-24T06:02:51Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > That applies to the US as well. In different ways it applies to any countries larger than Andorra and a few smaller ones. Most / all countries have problems. Relatively few countries have gangs capable of fighting their army so ferociously that their president capitulates to their demands. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/14 "2019-10-24T11:59:29Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Relatively few countries have gangs capable of fighting their army so ferociously that their president capitulates to their demands. :dubious: [The various Bundy terrorism standoffs, anybody](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff)? If mere capitulation is your criterion, our homegrown American anti-government gangs have forced that more than once now in our own “failed state”. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/15 "2019-10-24T12:39:39Z")
The US was not a “failed state” in 1862 by any reasonable measure. Likewise, neither is Mexico today. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/16 "2019-10-25T19:57:01Z")
Sadly enough, México is dangerously close to becoming a failed state. In many areas the cartels have become the defacto rulers. The government may still run the day to day operations such as infrastructure and many civil matters but the justice system has pretty much been taken over. Law enforcement has either been intimidated or bought off. The cartels know who is who and what is what. Step out of line and pay a heavy price. It is really sad situation and there doesn’t seem to be a remedy. There is no hero with a white hat riding into town like in American cowboy movies to deal with the bad guys and restoring the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/17 "2019-10-25T20:12:39Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > There is no hero with a white hat riding into town like in American cowboy movies to deal with the bad guys and restoring the rule of law. We might fill that role for you, but we have a habit of overstaying our welcome. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/18 "2019-10-25T21:08:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: [The various Bundy terrorism standoffs, anybody](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff)? > > If mere capitulation is your criterion, our homegrown American anti-government gangs have forced that more than once now in our own “failed state”. I specified capitulation _by their president_ to hopefully head off this tangent. It apparently didn’t work. I’m sure that at times and places in this country various entities have been intimidated. Rarely has that intimidation come in the form of open battles with authorities and I can’t readily recall any incidents where _the president_ capitulated to their demand(s) because of open gun battles. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/19 "2019-10-25T21:28:06Z")
I don’t know about a hero with a white hat riding _into_ town, but there have been incidents where the townspeople rose up and defended their town _themselves_: [Foreign Affairs - The Rise of Mexico’s Self-Defense Forces](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/mexico/2013-06-11/rise-mexico-s-self-defense-forces) [LA Times - In one small Mexican town, the citizens become armed vigilantes to take on a drug gang](https://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-mexico-guerrero-standoff-20161216-story.html) [New Yorker - A Mexican Town Wages Its Own War on Drugs](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/11/27/a-mexican-town-wages-its-own-war-on-drugs) [Wikipedia - Grupos de Autodefensa Comunitaria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupos_de_Autodefensa_Comunitaria) ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/20 "2019-10-25T21:45:21Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well if its such a good place, then why do so many want to move here or have people here sending them money? > > No, its not a Somalia like failed state but it has some messed up areas. Its not somalia but they are a middle income nation with a GDP of over a trillion dollars. People move here because of higher wages. If Canada offered $70/hr for unskilled labor then tons and tons of Americans would move there legally and illegally to work. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178.md?page=2)