# Is Mexico a failed state? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 23, 2019, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178 "2019-10-23T05:49:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/41 "2019-10-28T16:19:12Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What is the USA supposed to do about this “harm,” if by merely existing, we draw the “dutiful, hardworking” Mexicans into the USA? Should we…build a wall? We could also stop paying them to sneak in to our country by actually making employers verify IDs and jailing the ones that don’t. A lot cheaper than mass detention centers to lock up a few thousand white collar criminal hiring managers. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/42 "2019-10-29T01:20:18Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I would argue that the US harms Mexico in three ways: > > 1. Tourist money, similarly, helps to keep the Mexican economy afloat and even encourage it to stay “rustic” so that there is no need for the country to advance and modernize. That is one of the most rididculous things I think I have ever heard. Maybe you could point out some facts that helped you form your opinion. It would be interesting to see where you came up with that jewel. I was born and have lived all of my life in Guadalajara and I can’t even begin to understand how someone could come up with such nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/43 "2019-10-29T01:52:59Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I would argue that the US harms Mexico in three ways: > > 1. Tourist money, similarly, helps to keep the Mexican economy afloat and even encourage it to stay “rustic” so that there is no need for the country to advance and modernize. That is one of the most rididculous things I think I have ever heard. Maybe you could point out some facts that helped you form your opinion. It would be interesting to see where you came up with that jewel. I was born and have lived all of my life in Guadalajara and I can’t even begin to understand how someone could come up with such nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/44 "2019-10-30T11:49:39Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Tourist money, similarly, helps to keep the Mexican economy afloat and even encourage it to stay “rustic” so that there is no need for the country to advance and modernize. Do you also believe that the existence of tourist-oriented tablaos flamencos means Spain will stay “rustic” forever? ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/45 "2019-10-30T19:11:43Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > 1. Tourist money, similarly, helps to keep the Mexican economy afloat and even encourage it to stay “rustic” so that there is no need for the country to advance and modernize. I’m pretty sure the beach resorts, archeological sites, historical areas, museums, festivals, ports, and modern entertainment centers draw more money than “rustic” areas. The entire country doesn’t live like the Amish. If a community looks “rustic,” it’s probably because they’re broke, not because they’re refusing to advance for the sake of tourism. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/46 "2019-11-05T16:32:41Z")
Yesterday a bunch of women and children were murdered in northern Mexico. It appears to have been at the hands of the drug cartels. [source](https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-citizens-killed-kidnapped-in-cartel-shootout-outside-northern-mexican-mormon-community-family) ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/47 "2019-11-05T19:20:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yesterday a bunch of women and children were murdered in northern Mexico. It appears to have been at the hands of the drug cartels. > > [source](https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-citizens-killed-kidnapped-in-cartel-shootout-outside-northern-mexican-mormon-community-family) It’s been a long time coming for that family. [Reddit - Dive into anything](https://www.reddit.com/r/mexico/comments/10ioqh/the_mexicam_mormon_war_completo/) ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/48 "2019-11-05T19:28:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yesterday a bunch of women and children were murdered in northern Mexico. It appears to have been at the hands of the drug cartels. > > [source](https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-citizens-killed-kidnapped-in-cartel-shootout-outside-northern-mexican-mormon-community-family) We have mass murder in the U.S. almost every month (or more, it’s hard to keep track), but we’re not a “failed state.” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/49 "2019-11-05T19:33:44Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > It’s been a long time coming for that family. [Reddit - Dive into anything](https://www.reddit.com/r/mexico/comments/10ioqh/the_mexicam_mormon_war_completo/) Here are some additional details: > [@](#): > > On the morning of November 4th, 2019, three mothers in three vehicles, with fourteen children between them, set out from LaMora, a small family community in the mountains of northeastern Sonora. Two of them to see family in Chihuahua, and one of them to pick up her husband from the airport in Phoenix, AZ. They never made it. They were ambushed by the Mexican cartels; shot, burned, and murdered in cold blood. These were innocent civilians, American citizens simply trying to live peaceful lives. > > For 11 hours, their families all over Sonora, Chihuahua, and the Midwestern US waited in fear and horror for any news of possible survivors. The first vehicle was found full of bullet holes and completely ablaze. Nita and the four of her seven children she had taken on the trip were burned to mostly ashes and only a few charred bones left to identify that all five had been inside. It appeared that one tried to escape as the front passenger door was open and the remains were partially in and out of the vehicle. > > On another part of the road, about 10 miles ahead, were Christina, with her baby Faith in her vehicle, and Dawna with nine children in hers. They both were fired upon from ahead and Christina jumped out waving her arms to let the attackers know that it was women and children in the vehicles. She gave her life to try and save the rest. Dawna and two of her boys were also killed in the gunfire. > > After witnessing his mother and brothers being shot dead, Dawna’s son Devin hid his 6 other siblings in the bushes and covered them with branches to keep them safe while he went for help. When he took too long to return, his 9 year old sister left the remaining five to try again. Devin arrived in LaMora at 5:30 pm, 6 hours after the ambush, giving the first news anyone had heard of his and Christina’s families. > > Devin’s uncles armed themselves with guns and returned to try and find the hidden children, knowing many of them were injured. They didn’t get far before realizing they would be risking death, since there had been continual shooting for hours, all over the mountains near LaMora. The group of men waited a while for reinforcements, and around 7:30, found the hidden children. They found Christina’s baby Faith with the vehicle around her riddled with bullet holes. Somehow she had remained untouched, and alive. She was in her car seat, which looked to have been hurriedly placed on the floor of the vehicle by her mother for protection. > > The search didn’t end there. Mckenzie, the 9 year old who’d gone for help, was missing. Soldiers who’d by then arrived, and the men of LaMora and nearby towns searched for two hours in the dark until they found her around 9:30. > > The five of Dawna’s children who were injured were picked up by a waiting ambulance and treated at the local hospital until a helicopter sent by Mexican military came to pick them up. Their father David who had by then arrived from Tucson, Arizona, accompanied them to be life flighted to another helicopter waiting at the US border, from there to be transported to Phoenix. > > Devin, his brother Jake, and Christina’s baby Faith, all uninjured, are now in the care of their aunts and grandmas in LaMora. > > We lost 9 today. Right now we are waiting, for the morning, for answers, for justice. > > Dead: > > Rhonita Maria Miller September 15, 1989, 30 yrs > Howard Jacob Miller, Jr. July 12, 2007, 12 yrs > Krystal Bellaine Miller, September 25, 2009 10 yrs > Titus Alvin Miller, March 13, 2019 - 8 months > Tiana Gricel Miller, March 13, 2019 - 8 months > (twins) > All shot and burned in their vehicle. Only ashes and a few bones remain. > > Father/husband is Howard Sr, who was in North Dakota at the time of attack. The three siblings left behind in LaMora being babysat at the Miller grandparents: Tristan, Amaryllis, and Zack. > > Dead: > > Christina Marie Langford Johnson - November 23, 1987, shot dead, 19 days away from 32 years > > Survived: > > Faith Marie Johnson April 9, 2019, 7 months old - was found in her car seat that seemed to be put on the floor, by her mother to try and protect her, uninjured, > > Dead: > > Dawna Ray Langford, June 19, 1976, 43 years > Trevor Harvey Langford April 4, 2008 11 years old, > Rogan Jay Langford, February 17, 2017 2.5 years old > All shot to death > > Survived > Kylie Evelyn Langford, March 8 2005, 14 years - shot in the foot > > Devin Blake Langford, July 6 2006, 13 years - uninjured, walked approximately 14 miles to LaMora to get help, after hiding his bleeding but living siblings in the bushes, and covering them with branches > > Mckenzie Rayne Langford, January 12 2010, - 9 years - grazed on her arm- sent by her sister Kylie for help when Devin didn’t return soon enough, got lost, and walked approximately 10 miles, for about 4 hours in the dark before she was found by the search parties > > Cody Greyson Langford, October 1 2011, 8 years- shot in the jaw, and the leg, his condition was worrying, but at last word, not critical > > Jake Ryder Langford, May 22 2013, 6 - uninjured > > Xander Boe Langford, June 4 2015, 4 - shot in the back > > Brixon Oliver Langford, February 15th 2019, almost 9 months - shot in the chest, open flesh wound, bullet graze on wrist > > If you’d like to donate to these wonderful, hurting families. Here is the link. > > \ ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/50 "2019-11-05T19:57:21Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > We have mass murder in the U.S. almost every month (or more, it’s hard to keep track), but we’re not a “failed state.” I think the difference is that when people shoot up cars full of innocent women and children here, they’re generally captured & prosecuted / killed. Mexico has less than half our population and had more than double our # of murders last year. Most of those murders will go unsolved. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/51 "2019-11-06T13:24:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think the difference is that when people shoot up cars full of innocent women and children here, they’re generally captured & prosecuted / killed. And they were. [https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/06/americas/mormons-attacked-us-mexico-border-wednesday/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/06/americas/mormons-attacked-us-mexico-border-wednesday/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/52 "2019-11-06T14:44:00Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > I’m pretty sure the beach resorts, archeological sites, historical areas, museums, festivals, ports, and modern entertainment centers draw more money than “rustic” areas. The entire country doesn’t live like the Amish. If a community looks “rustic,” it’s probably because they’re broke, not because they’re refusing to advance for the sake of tourism. Right… if anything, the fact that Mexico is considered a middle-income nation ought to really hammer home two things to an American. First, how amazingly, dramatically wealthy and rich we are here in the US. We look at Mexico and see a lot of poverty and an inability to provide what we consider basic services (safe water, public safety, etc…), yet that’s middle income by world standards. Second, if Mexico is middle income, it should make us wonder just how bad off lower income countries are. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/53 "2019-11-06T16:44:12Z")
Mexico does have some good colleges and businesses. I think one frustration that pushes immigration is the lack of opportunity for a young person from a poor background that wants to get a good paying job because there is little social mobility and hard work isnt rewarded. The good jobs mostly go to family members and those with contacts. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/54 "2019-11-06T17:11:56Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Mexico does have some good colleges and businesses. I think one frustration that pushes immigration is the lack of opportunity for a young person from a poor background that wants to get a good paying job because there is little social mobility and hard work isnt rewarded. The good jobs mostly go to family members and those with contacts. That’s very true. I went to graduate school with a bunch of international students, including several from Mexico and the level of casual corruption in their country’s cultures was astounding to me. I think there’s a lot of stuff that we, as Americans or Western Europeans take for granted that aren’t the case elsewhere in the world, and having substantially non-corrupt societies is one of them. I remember being stunned when the Mexican and Turkish MBA students in grad school were tickled that in the US, they didn’t have to grease anyone’s palm to get mundane, routine stuff done, like getting a copy of their transcript, or getting their car inspected. Apparently that’s the way it rolls in those countries- you have to hook people up to get hooked up. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/55 "2019-11-07T03:26:41Z")
So, we offer to send troops to Mexico to strike back against the cartels. Does that mean we will welcome Mexican and German troops to fight our white nationalists since both countries had citizens murdered in El Paso last August? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/56 "2019-11-07T04:19:09Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > So, we offer to send troops to Mexico to strike back against the cartels. > > Does that mean we will welcome Mexican and German troops to fight our white nationalists since both countries had citizens murdered in El Paso last August? It’s unnecessary. Our military didn’t lose a battle to the cartels a few weeks ago. Mexico’s did. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/57 "2019-11-07T04:21:34Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Mexico does have some good colleges and businesses. I think one frustration that pushes immigration is the lack of opportunity for a young person from a poor background that wants to get a good paying job because there is little social mobility and hard work isnt rewarded. The good jobs mostly go to family members and those with contacts. Or, if the company is American, to the Americans. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/58 "2019-11-07T04:38:43Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > And they were. [https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/06/americas/mormons-attacked-us-mexico-border-wednesday/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/06/americas/mormons-attacked-us-mexico-border-wednesday/index.html) Not so much, it seems: > [@](#): > > On Tuesday, Mexican authorities announced the arrest of a suspect in relation to the massacre. > > But Wednesday, Durazo said investigators have learned the suspect was not involved. [Source](https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/06/americas/mormons-attacked-us-mexico-border-wednesday/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/59 "2019-11-07T13:02:54Z")
We say drug cartel for Mexico, and drug gang in the US. It is still part of the same distribution system. The coast guard and border patrol can only also stop a fraction of what’s coming in. By the same reasoning is the US also a failed state? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2019, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178/60 "2019-11-07T13:17:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not so much, it seems: That’s unfortunate, but it’s still pretty early. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-mexico-a-failed-state/842178.md?page=4)