# Is military action against Iran an inevitability? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 3, 2011, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726 "2011-11-03T09:40:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/61 "2011-11-08T05:24:03Z")
It’s relevant as evidence that the US perceived France as… oh, pick your form of approbation… cowardly, disloyal, greedy (because of it’s business ties to Iraq), because France did not support the invasion. The White House and Congress were doing every little petty thing in their power to either strong-arm support from countries, or discredit countries that wouldn’t provide support. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/62 "2011-11-08T05:25:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Facts, like spelling, can be checked and examined. If necessary, I can point to citations that demonstrate that most of the world did not believe, in the period between October 2002 and March 2003, that Iraq had any significant supplies of WMD. Certainly public opinion in Canada was not on board with the need to go into Iraq. The Canadian government at the time did not buy into the “WMD” crappola, and that’s why Canada did not join the “Coalition of the tiny unknown countries” (Poland! Don’t forget Poland!) ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/63 "2011-11-08T05:42:29Z")
[Russia warned Israel](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/8874073/Russia-warns-against-Israeli-air-strike-on-Iran.html) against any attack. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/64 "2011-11-08T05:44:51Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > It’s relevant as evidence that the US perceived France as… oh, pick your form of approbation… cowardly, disloyal, greedy (because of it’s business ties to Iraq), because France did not support the invasion. The White House and Congress were doing every little petty thing in their power to either strong-arm support from countries, or discredit countries that wouldn’t provide support. You’re talking about the guys, who, when their Prime Minister was told that he was invited to LBJ’s ranch, where he would ride in a golf cart and eat barbecue, said, “I have the Bomb. I do not have to go.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/65 "2011-11-08T05:49:28Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That was really stupid, to rename French fries, but how is it related? thelabdude implied that Germany and France were on board with the belief that Iraq had WMDs. The Freedom Fries nonsense was a reaction to France refusing to condone a UN authorization of the invasion because the evidence, (the evidence presented to the UN by Colin Powell that he described as “bullshit”), failed to persuade them of the WMD claim. “Freedom Fries” is shorthand for “_France was not on board; your claim is in error._” ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/66 "2011-11-08T06:08:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In the long run they know it’s a choice between nukes or being conquered and slaughtered, and they know it. They know quite well that negotiation or cooperation won’t help in the slightest; Saddam tried those and he’s dead. They know that they aren’t the problem; the West has been their enemy since before the present government existed. The present regime could commit mass suicide and it wouldn’t keep Iran safe from us. That’s the last time I ever even _try_ to take you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/67 "2011-11-08T06:11:58Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > [Russia warned Israel](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/8874073/Russia-warns-against-Israeli-air-strike-on-Iran.html) against any attack. Of course they did. Israel attacking Iran goes against Russia’s interests. Russia and Iran have good trade relations, not to menton Russia still isn’t happy with the US (and to some degree, the EU) having so much power. But the also complied with sanctions and pulled their arms agreements, so it’s best for Russia if Israel sits tight. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/68 "2011-11-08T11:27:12Z")
It wasn’t that France and Germany disagreed on the WMD, they just didn’t want to do anything about it. I also have noted a lack of ‘‘I told you so’’ after we didn’t find the WMD. Back them I was getting much of my news from a Gannet paper and Reuters. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/69 "2011-11-08T14:52:23Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > It wasn’t that France and Germany disagreed on the WMD, they just didn’t want to do anything about it. That is not what the leaders of those countries said at the time. They each noted that the UN inspection team was coming up empty handed and said that we needed confirmation of the claims before we acted. There were various false reports in the U.S. that misquoted Chirtac’s vow to veto one specific UN resolution, misrepresenting his words to defeat that specific motion to a broader claim that he would never support an invasion, but the corrected versions of his comment were available to people who did not rely on the successors to William Randolph Hearst and his conquest of Cuba. [Here is Chirac’s interview with Christiane Amanpour prior to the invasion.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX2rS6p3akw) > [@thelabdude](#): > > I also have noted a lack of ‘‘I told you so’’ after we didn’t find the WMD. From France and Germany? Nations are not message boards or playgrounds. “I told you so,” (particularly when it would be a confirmation that the told party was a big fat liar), is a rather rare event in the world of diplomatic relations, where even insults tend to be delivered as politely as possible. = = = Prior to November, 2002, there was, indeed, a general feeling around the world that Hussein was still harboring much of the war materiel that he had employed against Iran and his own people. However, once the UN teams re-entered Iraq and began their inspections, the evidence firmly turned against that view. Any number of people and countries can be quoted as believing that Iraq held WMD up to October 2002, but after that point, only those who were willing to accept the Bush Administration lies, (not problematic intelligence), continued to hold that position. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/70 "2011-11-08T15:04:17Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > That’s the last time I ever even _try_ to take you seriously. Somehow I doubt it was even the first. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/71 "2011-11-08T17:22:18Z")
Also, the notion that Saddam Hussein was an American client is simply nonsense. IRAN was the American client under the Shah, and Iraq was a SOVIET client. Remember the first Gulf War? When we were blowing up Saddam’s tanks and APCs, were we blowing up American built weapons, or Soviet built weapons? It certainly isn’t the case that the US was wringing it’s hands at the injustice of a Soviet client attacking Iran. We viewed the Iran-Iraq war as two axis of evil countries fighting each other, which was fine by us. That doesn’t make Iraq our stooge during the Iran-Iraq war. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/72 "2011-11-08T19:18:36Z")
Ne, we were supporting Iraq in the war in their war against Iran with billions of dollars worth of assistance. [Here is a Wiki article about it.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war) If that’s not sufficient, [here’s a New York Times story](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/18/world/officers-say-us-aided-iraq-in-war-despite-use-of-gas.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm) saying the US was providing the aid even while knowing that Iraq was using chemical weapons. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/73 "2011-11-08T19:25:14Z")
Providing aid to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war is not the same as being the main instigator, or puppet master of Iraq. Iraq invaded Iran for their own reasons, not at our fervent urging. Yeah…we provided aid to Iraq, and in hindsight that was stupid, no doubt. Not the stupidest thing we have ever done, but not exactly on the list of good US foreign policy (plus, if we are talking about US foreign policy, ‘stupidest thing we have ever done’ is going to be in huge contention, since there is so much to choose from :p). -XT ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/74 "2011-11-08T20:12:17Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Providing aid to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war is not the same as being the main instigator, or puppet master of Iraq. Iraq invaded Iran for their own reasons, not at our fervent urging. Yeah…we provided aid to Iraq, and in hindsight that was stupid, no doubt. > > -XT Yeah, well I’m _still_ POed about that Embassy thing… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/75 "2011-11-08T23:28:43Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Ne, we were supporting Iraq in the war in their war against Iran with billions of dollars worth of assistance. [Here is a Wiki article about it.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war) If that’s not sufficient, [here’s a New York Times story](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/18/world/officers-say-us-aided-iraq-in-war-despite-use-of-gas.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm) saying the US was providing the aid even while knowing that Iraq was using chemical weapons. Wikipedia articles are useful for wiping your ass if you’ve run out of toilet paper, but not much else. That’s especially true of articles on the Middle East which are regularly hijacked by activists of all different stripes(pro-Israeli, pro-Palestinian, anti-Iraq War, pro-Iraq War). Beyond that, as noted there’s a difference between supporting a country invading the country that had just invaded the US Embassy and held numerous Americans hostage for over a year and having sad country as your puppet or close ally. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/76 "2011-11-08T23:43:15Z")
I didn’t say Iraq was America’s puppet, and I don’t believe it was. But the US did arm it, provide it with military supplies and intelligence, and enrich Saddam in the process. ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/77 "2011-11-09T00:04:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Facts, like spelling, can be checked and examined. If necessary, I can point to citations that demonstrate that most of the world did not believe, in the period between October 2002 and March 2003, that Iraq had any significant supplies of WMD. I can provide evidence that the “coalition” was bribed and coerced. I can point to links on this message board that demonstrate that even among U.S. citizens, there was hardly unanimity of opinion believing the Bush Administration lies. I have already provided evidence that the “intelligence” was cooked. > > I don’t want to go through the effort, but I can do it. Can you provide any credible evidence that France and Germany accepted the claims of the Bush Administration? (Or have you already forgotten “Freedom Fries” in the Capitol dining room?) just wondering if it is ok for mods to hijack threads these days? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/78 "2011-11-09T01:35:30Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I didn’t say Iraq was America’s puppet, and I don’t believe it was. But the US did arm it, provide it with military supplies and intelligence, and enrich Saddam in the process. We did the same to Stalin during World War II. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/79 "2011-11-09T01:43:56Z")
> [@ProbablyProcrastinating](#): > > Netanyahu has done stranger things. > > I think that under Obama, you won’t see war with Iran. First of all, not only liberal advisors, but most advisors, suggest it’s a loss. We know much, much more about Iran than we knew about Iraq because of the massive diaspora. And the more you know, the worse the idea seems. > > If the Republicans come in, you know there’s nothing they love more than to spend money on guns, so who knows? I’m remembering a column by Molly Ivins in which she was talking about the threat of Ira- as we went to war with Ira-. I wish I could find it online. It’s not just conservatives that have been whining about Iran. iirc, liberals have been bemoaning our focus on Iraq while we should be more worried about Iran. It’s not a liberal v. conservative thing. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726/80 "2011-11-09T02:19:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > From France and Germany? Nations are not message boards or playgrounds. “I told you so,” (particularly when it would be a confirmation that the told party was a big fat liar), is a rather rare event in the world of diplomatic relations, where even insults tend to be delivered as politely as possible. Well yes, but nothing from the Democrats or news media. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-military-action-against-iran-an-inevitability/601726.md?page=5)