# Is milk really that bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 12, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-milk-really-that-bad/168327 "2003-04-12T21:41:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-milk-really-that-bad/168327/1 "2003-04-12T21:41:57Z")
I got into an argument with this one guy on the Penn and Teller Bullshit message board. He claimed that milk was very bad for you and listed a whole bunch of links on it including [www.notmilk.com](http://www.notmilk.com) I of course after reading Cecil’s argument about this a few week back decided to challenge him since it appeared nobody else was doing so. At first I gave a few caveman like answers trying to tell him that he’s reading bias sources but he was way too smart for that so he started calling my beliefs bullsh\*t and saying I have a lack of education. So I gave him a couple of links saying that not everyone believes milk is horrible and then gave him the link to Cecil’s thread about it. He and someone else chimed in and asked who the hell this Cecil Adams was and that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. So anyways he felt he totally crushed me in this argument and I wouldn’t admit it so I offered him a chance to register here and start a thread on it and see what responses he gets because usually this topic is split 50/50 here. Anyways he refused because he apparently had much better things to do with his time than take a “long” time registering here. Anyways so I told him I’d post the thread over there, here and see what you guys have to say about his beliefs. Now don’t get me wrong, I do believe milk may cause problems somewhere but I do not believe it is a horrible beverage like he feels it is. So anyways who’s right here. Is it him or is it me that’s wrong? Here’s the link: [http://showtime.infopop.net/1/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=5131954363&f=2741980806&m=7981907136&p=1](http://showtime.infopop.net/1/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=5131954363&f=2741980806&m=7981907136&p=1) BTW I wasn’t sure where to post this so I figured this would turn into a debate so I posted here. Move it somewhere else if it’s in the wrong place. ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-milk-really-that-bad/168327/2 "2003-04-13T01:00:17Z")
I’d read his thread, but I don’t want to take a long time registering. And I’ll reply, but I want to get some cites together first. Incidentally, did this “Not Milk” fellow give you any actual evidence, any studies or statistics or… you know… _proof_, or did he just say that milk was bad because you’re ignorant? ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-milk-really-that-bad/168327/3 "2003-04-13T01:23:32Z")
I’ve just read Cecil’s column, which is really good enough for me (I mean, who do you trust, some guy on the Penn and Teller board, or Cecil.) But here’s a link to a U.S. News and World Reports article saying that the benefits of drinking milk outweigh the risks: [http://www.usnews.com/usnews/nycu/health/articles/010611/health/milk.htm](http://www.usnews.com/usnews/nycu/health/articles/010611/health/milk.htm) This is an interesting quote: > [@](#): > > Milk may lower risk of stroke > A 22-year study of Japanese men found that drinking milk might reduce the threat of the most common type of strokes. Within the subject group of middle-aged and old-aged men, those who did not drink milk were twice as likely to suffer a thromboembolic stroke as men who downed at least 16 ounces a day. Of course, you won’t be surprised to learn that milk-drinking men also had more healthy lifestyles, and that could be the cause for their lower risk of stroke.(Associated Press, 7 May 1996) which came from here: [http://home.earthlink.net/~stbvideo/Newsletter5\_9\_96.html](http://home.earthlink.net/~stbvideo/Newsletter5_9_96.html) And here’s an article about children and milk: [http://www.fitness2live.com.au/default.asp?pg=nutritionzone&spg=fluids\_featuredispla&articleid=4722](http://www.fitness2live.com.au/default.asp?pg=nutritionzone&spg=fluids_featuredispla&articleid=4722) ---
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-milk-really-that-bad/168327/4 "2003-04-13T01:28:44Z")
He did give me plenty of books and pages where I can find stuff on it but very few links and I’m not about to go and read these books. He also keeps on saying he has proof that will shut me up for sure but the site won’t let him post it, which I have a hard time believing. Overall it seems he’s a bit more ignorant than me and reads nothing but biased material. Also you don’t have to register to read it but you do need to, to reply. ---
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-milk-really-that-bad/168327/5 "2003-04-13T01:49:02Z")
He did give me plenty of books and pages where I can find stuff on it but very few links and I’m not about to go and read these books. He also keeps on saying he has proof that will shut me up for sure but the site won’t let him post it, which I have a hard time believing. Overall it seems he’s a bit more ignorant than me and reads nothing but biased material. Also you don’t have to register to read it but you do need to, to reply. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-milk-really-that-bad/168327/6 "2003-04-13T01:49:25Z")
> [@](#): > > We at Showtime Online express our apologies; however, these pages are intended for access only from within the United States. hmm, suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-milk-really-that-bad/168327/7 "2003-04-13T01:56:12Z")
Ya, They must not support our allies. Then they must not support our troops. So let’s boycott Showtime!!! ---
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-milk-really-that-bad/168327/8 "2003-04-13T02:00:42Z")
Whoops, Yes I think you do need to register to read it. ---
**Author:** ![lorinada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5e925/32.png) [@lorinada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorinada)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-milk-really-that-bad/168327/9 "2003-04-13T02:04:09Z")
I have never understood this reasoning. We are **mammals** fur chrissake! Of course some people have a problem with milk from other species, but most don’t. Some have a problem with the large lactose molecules, but most don’t. I could accept an argument that stated as mammals we are only intended to have milk as babies, but as of yet I have seen no proof this is true. ---
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-milk-really-that-bad/168327/10 "2003-04-14T01:24:48Z")
Here’s an example of some of the stuff he gave me about milk being bad (If I posted it all it would be the longest post in SDMB history.): 1. Judith Jones Putnam and Jane E Allshouse. Food Consumption, Prices, and Expenditures. Annual Data published by the United States Department of Agriculture, 1996. 2. National Fluid Milk Processor Promotion Board. Milk: What a Surprise!, 1995. 3. National Fluid Milk Processor Promotion Board, Real Men Drink Milk, 1996. 4. EMAIL letter from Dr. Susan Barr to Robert Cohen, December 19, 1996. 5. Estelle Mongeau. NIN (National Institute of Nutrition) Review, #24. Summer, 1995. 6. EMAIL letter from Dr. Suzanne Oparil to Robert Cohen, December 12, 1996. 7. National Fluid Milk Processor Promotion Board. Milk: What a Surprise!, 1995. 8. Judith Jones Putnam and Jane E. Allshouse. Food Consumption, Prices, and Expenditures. Annual Data published by the United States Department of Agriculture, 1996. 9. Vernon Heaton. The Mayflower. New York: Mayflower Books, 1980, p. 72. 10. Pictorial History of American History, vol. 1. Chicago: Davco Publishing, 1962, p.45. 11. Bradford’s History of Plymouth Plantation. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, Inc., 1908, p. 166. 12. Will Durant and Ariel Durant. The Story of Civilization, Part IV: The Age of Faith. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1950, p. 645. 13. The 1997 World Almanac and Book of Facts. K-III Reference Corporation, p. 610. 14. The World Book Encyclopedia. 1995 edition, “Milk.” 15. Samuel Eliot Morison. Old Colony of New Plymouth. Alfred A. Knopf, 1956, p. 47. 16. William Bradford. Of Plymouth Plantation. NewYork: Random House, 1952, p. 49. 17. Ibid., pP. 50-51. 18. Jane Heimlich Column. Health and Healing Newsletter. Published by Julian Whitaker, July, 1994, p. 3. 19. Jane, Heimlich. What Your Doctor Won’t Tell You. New York: Harper Collins, 1990. 20. Letter from Robert Cohen to Dr. Robert Collier, August 25, 1994. 21. Judith C. Juskevich and C. Greg Guyer. “Bovine Growth Hormone: Human Food Safety Evaluation.” Science, vol. 249. August 24, 1990, pp. 875-884. 22. Background information on the American Association for the Advancement of Science, FAXED to Robert Cohen on June 12, 1995. 23. Ann Gibbons letter. Science, vol. 249. August 24, 1990, p. 852. 24. Monsanto’s INAD application to FDA. Figure 1, p. 114. 25. Bernard Violand. “Isolation of Escherichia Coli synthesized recombinant eukaryotic proteins that contain epsilon-N-acetyllysine.” Journal of Protein Science, July, 1994, pp. 1089-1097. 26. Letter from Richard Teske to Robert Cohen, August 10, 1995. 27. Kurt A. Oster, M.D. and Donald J. Ross, Ph. D. The X-O Factor. New York: Park City Press, 1983. 28. P.V. Malvern. “Prolactin and other protein hormones in milk.” J. Dairy Science 45. 1977, pp. 609-616. In Reality it is: 29. P.V. Malvern, H.H. Head, R.J. Collier, F.C. Buonomo. “Periparturient Changes in secretion and mammary uptake of insulin and in concentrations of insulin and insulin-like growth factors in milk of dairy cows.” J. Dairy Science 70. 1987, pp. 2254-2265. 30. B.G. Hammond, R.J. Collier, et al. “Food safety and pharmakinetic studies which support a zero (0) meat and milk withdrawal time for use of sometribove in dairy cows.” Originally presented at a conference of Pharmakinetics of Veterinary Drugs, October 11-12, 1989, Fougeres, France. 31. D. Richard, G. Odaglia, P. Deslex, unpublished report. Department of Product Safety Assessment, Searle Research and Development, prepared for Monsanto Co., St. Louis, MO., 1989. 32. Jerome A. Moore, et al. “Equivalent Potency and Pharmacokinetics of Recombinant Human Growth Hormones with or without an N-Terminal Methionine.” Endocrinology 122. 1988, pp. 2920. 33. Telephone call from Robert Cohen to Judy Jeskevich, September 15, 1994. 34. Genetics class taught by Professor William Burke. Southampton College, Long Island University, 1970. 35. D.E. Bauman, B.W. McBride, J.L.Burton, K. Sejrsen. Somatotropin (BST): International Dairy Federation Technical Report. Bulletin of the IDF. 293:2, February, 1994. 36. “Effect of heat treatment, enzymatic, and microbial processing and quantification of peptide hormones in milk and dairy products.” Proceedings of the NIH Technology Assessment Conference: Bovine Somatotropin. December 5- 7, 1990. National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland. 37. Telephone conversations between Robert Cohen and Paul Groenewegen, April 28, 1995. 38. Paul P. Groenewegen, Brian W. McBride, John H. Burton, Theodore H. Elsasser. “Bioactivity of Milk from bST-Treated Cows.” J. Nutrition 120, 1990, pp. 514-519. 39. Anthony F. Philipps, et al.“Fate of Insulin-Like Growth Factors I and II Administered Orogastrically to suckling rats.” Pediatric Research, vol. 37, no. 5, 1995, pp. 586-592. 40. Frystyk K, et al. “Free Insulin-like growth factors (IGF-I and IGF-II) in human serum.” FEBS-lett., July 11, 1994, 348 (2), pp. 185-191. Anyways he gave me 336 of these. He also includes links such as: [http://www.notmilk.com/notmilk.wmv](http://www.notmilk.com/notmilk.wmv) [http://www.drjaygordon.com/pediatricks/dairy.htm](http://www.drjaygordon.com/pediatricks/dairy.htm) All I’m asking out of you guys is some info on who’s right or wrong. ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-milk-really-that-bad/168327/11 "2003-04-14T02:10:32Z")
We eat a variety of plant and animal products. That’s how we live.